Urdu, Hindi: roke rukaa

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MonsieurGonzalito

Senior Member
Castellano de Argentina
Friends,

What would be the literal translation of the second part of this verse?

raat bhar kaa hai mahmaan amNdheraa
kis ke roke rukaa hai saveraa


The interpretive translation is:

Darkness is a guest for as much as the night
Who can hold back the morning bright?


And it belongs to the song and "Raat bhar ka hai mehmaan andhera", by Sahir Ludhianvi

Could it be something like:

hindered by whom, has (ever) the morning stopped?

Is it a common idiom or pattern, to indicate that something can't be done?

Thanks in advance.
 
  • aevynn

    Senior Member
    USA
    English, Hindustani
    Is it a common idiom or pattern, to indicate that something can't be done?
    It's not just roke na(/nahiiN) ruknaa, by the way. It's a more general pattern: one finds similar constructions with other "transitive-intransitive pairs" too, with the meaning "to try but be unable to do." For instance...

    itnaa kaam mere kiye nahiiN hotaa.​
    [No matter how hard I try,] I just can't do this much work.​
    aisii kisii baat kaa zikr mujhe kitaaboN meN kahiiN DhuunDhe nahiiN milaa.​
    [I looked everywhere, but] I couldn't find written record of anything like this.​
     

    MonsieurGonzalito

    Senior Member
    Castellano de Argentina
    It's not just roke na(/nahiiN) ruknaa, by the way. It's a more general pattern: one finds similar constructions with other "transitive-intransitive pairs" too, with the meaning "to try but be unable to do." For instance...

    itnaa kaam mere kiye nahiiN hotaa.​
    [No matter how hard I try,] I just can't do this much work.​
    aisii kisii baat kaa zikr mujhe kitaaboN meN kahiiN DhuunDhe nahiiN milaa.​
    [I looked everywhere, but] I couldn't find written record of anything like this.​
    Oh, is it the same as Hindi, Urdu: kaaTe nahiiN kaTe ?
    I thought that mechanism needed an -aa- somewhere, and be a causative / non causative pair ...
     

    aevynn

    Senior Member
    USA
    English, Hindustani
    I wonder if this pattern might apply slightly more generally than transitive-intransitive pairs. I'm probably poking at a fringe phenomenon now, but might one hear similar constructions with a causative-transitive pair as well...? For example, how would others feel about the following sentence about a fussy eater?

    ye laRkaa sabziyaaN mere khilaae nahiiN khaataa.​
     

    Qureshpor

    Senior Member
    Panjabi, Urdu پنجابی، اردو
    I wonder if this pattern might apply slightly more generally than transitive-intransitive pairs. I'm probably poking at a fringe phenomenon now, but might one hear similar constructions with a causative-transitive pair as well...? For example, how would others feel about the following sentence about a fussy eater?

    ye laRkaa sabziyaaN mere khilaae nahiiN khaataa.​
    One of Mirza Ghalib's renowned Ghazals begins with these lines...

    nuktah-chiiN hai Gham-i-dil, us ko sunaa'e nah bane
    kyaa bane baat, jahaaN baat banaa'e nah bane

    The "radiif" (refrain) of the Ghazal is "nah bane" and the qaafiyah (rhyme) is sunaa'e, banaa'e, sataa'e, chhupaa'e, lagaa'e, banaa'e bujhaa'e...all causative verbs. The intransitive and transitive verbs used are aa'e and bulaa'e respectively.
     

    aevynn

    Senior Member
    USA
    English, Hindustani
    I did see Alfaaz's link to the same ghazal in the thread that @MonsieurGonzalito linked us too earlier [note: it's also available in Nagari on Rekhta], but perhaps this ghazal doesn't quite address quite what I was asking...? The only clear examples that I see of the roke na ruknaa grammatical construction in Ghalib's ghazal happen in the lines which use banaanaa-bannaa (lines 2 and 16), but it seems to me that both of these lines use banaanaa-bannaa as a transitive-intransitive pair. It also seems to me that most of the verbs ending in -aanaa that are used for the ghazal's qaafiya are actually transitive, not causative(/ditransitive):

    [x ne] [y (ko)] sataayaa/chhupaayaa/banaayaa/bujhaayaa/uThaayaa​

    sunaanaa-sunnaa would be a causative-transitive pair (like khilaanaa-khaanaa in the sentence I asked about), so I guess an alternative sentence of the kind of thing I was asking about would be the following (poorly metered!) rephrasing of Ghalib's opening misra'.

    nuqtah-chiiN hai Gam-e-dil, wo koi bhii baat mere sunaae na sune​

    lagnaa and lagaanaa seem to sort of defy neat classification into categories like "intransitive," "transitive," and "ditransitive." In any case, it seems to me that Bakshink's sentence here which uses lagaanaa-lagnaa in this type of construction is perhaps an example of a transitive-intransitive usage.
     

    littlepond

    Senior Member
    Hindi
    I'm probably poking at a fringe phenomenon now, but might one hear similar constructions with a causative-transitive pair as well...? For example, how would others feel about the following sentence about a fussy eater?

    ye laRkaa sabziyaaN mere khilaae nahiiN khaataa.​
    Another example of such type:

    "is saal fasal itnii achchhii huii hai, kaTaae/kaTvaae nahiiN kaT rahii!"
     
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