Urdu, Hindi: Jaisaa or aisaa?

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Qureshpor

Senior Member
Panjabi, Urdu پنجابی، اردو
I am not sure if we have had a separate thread on this topic. There are situations where, in my humble understanding, we ought to have the relative (jaisaa) and not the proximate (aisaa). Please take a look at the following two examples, from the same source and author.

masal-an Miir SaaHib aisii shaxsiyyat ne bhii agar "3ishq-i-xurd saaloN" aisii tarkiib isti3maal kii hai to vuh chalii nahiiN.

fasaaHat ke baab meN agar Miir aise buzurg "kam-gher" kaa Hindi-Farsi murakkab barat jaate haiN to un kii vajh se yih usluub fasiiH nahiiN ho jaa'e gaa.

Where I have underlined the words, would you use "aisii" ,"aise" or "jaisii", jaise"?
 
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  • Qureshpor

    Senior Member
    Panjabi, Urdu پنجابی، اردو
    marrish and UM SaaHibaan, have you encountered such usage, in speech or writing?
     

    marrish

    Senior Member
    اُردو Urdu
    marrish and UM SaaHibaan, have you encountered such usage, in speech or writing?
    I do not think so. If I have, I didn't pay heed. Perhaps if we were to put a comma before ''aisaa'', such an usage would be justified.
     

    Alfaaz

    Senior Member
    English
    This could probably be an example:

    پہنچ کے در پہ تیرے کتنے معتبر ٹھہرے
    اگرچہ رہ میں ہوئی جگ ہنسائیاں کیا کیا
    ہم ایسے سادہ دلوں کی نیازمندی سے
    بتوں نے کی ہیں جہاں میں خدائیاں کیا کیا
    فیض

    pahoNch ke dar peh tere kitne moعtabar Thehre
    agarcheh reh meiN hu'ii jag hansaa'iyaaN kyaa kyaa
    hum aise saadah diloN ki niyaaz-mandi se
    butoN ne ki haiN jahaaN meiN khudaa'iyaaN kyaa kyaa
    Faiz
     

    Qureshpor

    Senior Member
    Panjabi, Urdu پنجابی، اردو
    This could probably be an example:

    پہنچ کے در پہ تیرے کتنے معتبر ٹھہرے
    اگرچہ رہ میں ہوئی جگ ہنسائیاں کیا کیا
    ہم ایسے سادہ دلوں کی نیازمندی سے
    بتوں نے کی ہیں جہاں میں خدائیاں کیا کیا
    فیض

    pahoNch ke dar peh tere kitne moعtabar Thehre
    agarcheh reh meiN hu'ii jag hansaa'iyaaN kyaa kyaa
    hum aise saadah diloN ki niyaaz-mandi se
    butoN ne ki haiN jahaaN meiN khudaa'iyaaN kyaa kyaa
    Faiz
    I am grateful for this example from a renowned poet, Alfaaz SaaHib. I am still curious why Faiz could not have said "ham jaise...". It would not have affected the "vazn" of the "shi3r" in anyway. We all know the song..

    aap jaisaa ko'ii merii zindagii meN aa'e
    to baat ban jaa'e (or is it "baap ban jaa'e"?:))

    Would it have sounded just as good if it was..

    aap aisaa ko'ii merii zindagii meN aa'e ?
     
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    greatbear

    Banned
    India - Hindi & English
    I don't know Urdu script, but could there be good chances of this being a typo (since "aise" doesn't make any sense in the couplet)? Is there any oral recording of the same poem with "aise"?
     

    Qureshpor

    Senior Member
    Panjabi, Urdu پنجابی، اردو
    I may have come across this in writing. But it is rare. Can't recall where. Wild guess, perhaps in Patras ke Mazamiin?
    Thank you. I have occasionally come across this usage in writing. I have always thought it was just a variant style and to be frank, it looks/sounds odd to me. I have checked Faiz's poem on the net and without exception the word "aise" is there. I see it as equivalent to "jaise" or simply "se!. Interesting thing is that as far as I remember, its occurrence has been invariably in those people's writings whom I would consider highly educated.
     
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    Qureshpor

    Senior Member
    Panjabi, Urdu پنجابی، اردو
    ہم ایسے لوگ بہت ہیں جو سوچتے ہی نہیں
    کہ عمر کیسے کٹی کس کے ساتھ بیت گئ

    ham aise log bahut haiN jo sochte hii nahiiN
    kih 3umr kaise kaTii, kis ke saath biit ga'ii
    Muhsin Naqvi

    There are lots of people like us who don't even think
    How has this life passed away, with whom was it spent
     

    Faylasoof

    Senior Member
    English (UK) & Urdu (Luckhnow), Hindi
    I am not sure if we have had a separate thread on this topic. There are situations where, in my humble understanding, we ought to have the relative (jaisaa) and not the proximate (aisaa). Please take a look at the following two examples, from the same source and author.

    masal-an Miir SaaHib aisii shaxsiyyat ne bhii agar "3ishq-i-xurd saaloN" aisii tarkiib isti3maal kii hai to vuh chalii nahiiN.

    fasaaHat ke baab meN agar Miir aise buzurg "kam-gher" kaa Hindi-Farsi murakkab barat jaate haiN to un kii vajh se yih usluub fasiiH nahiiN ho jaa'e gaa.

    Where I have underlined the words, would you use "aisii" ,"aise" or "jaisii", jaise"?
    In agreement with you and others jaisii and jaise ought to be used here. The alternative is: ke aisii and ke aise.
     
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    Qureshpor

    Senior Member
    Panjabi, Urdu پنجابی، اردو
    Faylasoof SaaHib, thank you for above. [I did n't quote you because there are a couple of typos in your sentence].

    So, in the sentences quoted, we should have "Miir SaaHib ke aisii", "xurd saaloN ke aisii" and "Miir ke aise buzurg"? Apart from what I have said already, IMHO, "Miir SaaHib kii sii"*, "xurd saaloN kii sii" and "Miir ke se buzurg" would be a better (at least sounding) option. My first choice would be "jaise", "jaisii" and "jaise" respectively. I presume, the "ke" is supposed to be understood in these constructions?

    *
    hastii apnii Habaab kii sii hai
    yih numaa'ish saraab kii sii hai

    naazukii us ke lab kii kyaa kahiye
    paNkhRii ik gulaab kii sii hai

    Miir
     
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    Faylasoof

    Senior Member
    English (UK) & Urdu (Luckhnow), Hindi
    Yes QP SaaHib, ke aise or kii sii are both fine in the context. So "miir SaaHib ke aisii / kii sii / jaisii shaxSiyat ..." etc. and "miir ke se buzurg" etc. is also fine. We are quite flexible about it.

    [Thanks for letting me know but I too didn't quote you for the same reason! There is a typo in your sentence telling me of the same! :)]
     

    rc2

    Member
    US
    India - Telugu
    Following up on this thread:

    A statement I received just last week from Ahmad Javaid sahab (Deputy Director of the Iqbal Academy, Lahore) -- as an example of the way used by the sender :

    Mujhay ehsaas hai keh aap aisi shakhsiyat kay liay apnay baaray main koi baat karnaa khudnumaai kay zumray main aataa hai, aur aisaa karna aap aisay bay nafs logon kay liay sakht naa gavaar hota hai.

    For what its worth, he speaks the way he wrote above too -- of course, I've only heard him speak in formal situations.

    Regards,
    RC

    Faylasoof SaaHib, thank you for above. [I did n't quote you because there are a couple of typos in your sentence].

    So, in the sentences quoted, we should have "Miir SaaHib ke aisii", "xurd saaloN ke aisii" and "Miir ke aise buzurg"? Apart from what I have said already, IMHO, "Miir SaaHib kii sii"*, "xurd saaloN kii sii" and "Miir ke se buzurg" would be a better (at least sounding) option. My first choice would be "jaise", "jaisii" and "jaise" respectively. I presume, the "ke" is supposed to be understood in these constructions?

    *
    hastii apnii Habaab kii sii hai
    yih numaa'ish saraab kii sii hai

    naazukii us ke lab kii kyaa kahiye
    paNkhRii ik gulaab kii sii hai

    Miir
     

    Qureshpor

    Senior Member
    Panjabi, Urdu پنجابی، اردو
    Following up on this thread:

    A statement I received just last week from Ahmad Javaid sahab (Deputy Director of the Iqbal Academy, Lahore) -- as an example of the way used by the sender :

    Mujhay ehsaas hai keh aap aisi shakhsiyat kay liay apnay baaray main koi baat karnaa khudnumaai kay zumray main aataa hai, aur aisaa karna aap aisay bay nafs logon kay liay sakht naa gavaar hota hai.

    For what its worth, he speaks the way he wrote above too -- of course, I've only heard him speak in formal situations. Regards, RC
    RC Jii, thank you for this quote.

    You may have noticed that one of the forum members (Alfaaz SaaHib) has quoted Faiz Ahmed Faiz with this usage. In your experience, have you come across any other masters of Urdu poetry who have employed "aisaa/aise/aisii" in this type of construction?
     

    rc2

    Member
    US
    India - Telugu
    I am grateful for this example from a renowned poet, Alfaaz SaaHib. I am still curious why Faiz could not have said "ham jaise...". It would not have affected the "vazn" of the "shi3r" in anyway.
    Qureshpor sahab - aadaab:

    I did see the quote of Faiz -- and beg to differ on your above remark.

    In the Faiz nazm, if "jaise" was used instead of "aise" in the line:
    "ham aise saadah.diloN kee niyaaz.mandee se"
    the line would most certainly fall outside the metre used here.

    I am not sure if this forum allows a detailed discussion of poetic meters, but in brief, the meter for scansion is
    behr-e mujtas musamman maKhboon mahzoof maqt'oo, which can be represented thus:

    - = - = | - - = = | - = - = | = =
    ( - short, = long syllable)

    Here, the ham aise is scanned as the "- = -" and the "meem" from the ham and the "alif" from the aise flow into each other and reads as "ham_aisay." With "jaise," there is a metrical issue poetically speaking -- the "jeem" removing the ease of flow in recitation. Therefore, Faiz's use above is a "requirement" of the metre. I know that does not address the basic topic of linguistic reasons for preference of aisaa vs. jaisaa, but in the line by Faiz above, there is only ONE choice and that is "aise."

    As for your other query of this kind usage by "classical poets," I cannot readily recall any specific examples right now, but I will keep an eye out for it, now that it is on my mind.

    Regards,
    RC
     
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    Qureshpor

    Senior Member
    Panjabi, Urdu پنجابی، اردو
    Qureshpor sahab - aadaab:

    I did see the quote of Faiz -- and beg to differ on your above remark.

    In the Faiz nazm, if "jaise" was used instead of "aise" in the line:
    "ham aise saadah.diloN kee niyaaz.mandee se"
    the line would most certainly fall outside the metre used here.

    I am not sure if this forum allows a detailed discussion of poetic meters, but in brief, the meter for scansion is
    behr-e mujtas musamman maKhboon mahzoof maqt'oo, which can be represented thus:

    - = - = | - - = = | - = - = | = =
    ( - short, = long syllable)

    Here, the ham aise is scanned as the "- = -" and the "meem" from the ham and the "alif" from the aise flow into each other and reads as "ham_aisay." With "jaise," there is a metrical issue poetically speaking -- the "jeem" removing the ease of flow in recitation. Therefore, Faiz's use above is a "requirement" of the metre. I know that does not address the basic topic of linguistic reasons for preference of aisaa vs. jaisaa, but in the line by Faiz above, there is only ONE choice and that is "aise."

    As for your other query of this kind usage by "classical poets," I cannot readily recall any specific examples right now, but I will keep an eye out for it, now that it is on my mind.

    Regards,
    RC
    Thank you for your scholarly input with regard to the metre issue. I am sure at least some of our Urdu forum members would find your elucidation not only interesting but also a useful learning experience. And that includes me. Thinking of "aise" of equivalent "weight" to "jaise" is n't simply good enough, it seems. One needs to be aware of this "fusion" process too! Thank you once again.

    Please do add more to this thread if you find examples from works of other Urdu poets (or prose writers).
     

    marrish

    Senior Member
    اُردو Urdu
    I am grateful too for this input of RC SaaHib and will stay in anticipation of further posts.
     

    Alfaaz

    Senior Member
    English
    کان میں جگ مگ بالی پتّہ
    گلے میں جگنو ، ہار
    صندل ایسی پیشانی پر
    بندیا لائی بہار
    گوری کرت سنگھار

    پروین شاکر
     

    Qureshpor

    Senior Member
    Panjabi, Urdu پنجابی، اردو
    ^ Thank you Alfaaz SaaHib for another citation of this usage from a well known Urdu poet. I have been trying to find something from a grammatical perspective and I faintly recall having read something about this construction somewhere but for the life of me I can't remember where. I shall keep up with my search.
     

    Qureshpor

    Senior Member
    Panjabi, Urdu پنجابی، اردو
    In agreement with you and others jaisii and jaise ought to be used here. The alternative is: ke aisii and ke aise.
    Maulana Hasrat Mohani has found fault with....

    ke se > ke aise

    However according to Shamsur Rahman Faruqi...."ke se, ke aise/jaise sab ravaa hai".

    I am therefore assuming that in all the examples that have been quoted from prose and verse, the word "ke" is understood. So, I think we have got to the bottom of this.
     
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