Urdu: شام کے مردے کو کب تک روئیے

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iskander e azam

Senior Member
English
دوستو،
شام کے مردے کو کب تک روئیے کے مقولہ پر میرا دھیان دھرا۔
پلیٹس اس کی تعریف دیتا ہے۔ لیکن اس کی تعریف مجھے صحیح نہیں لگتی۔ میرے سمجھ میں اس مقولے کی تعریف ’یہ مشکل کب ختم ہوے گی‘ ہونی چاہئے۔ آپ لوگوں کو کیسا لگتا ہے؟
میں آپ کی مدد کے لیے بہت ممنون ہوں۔
اسکندر
 
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  • marrish

    Senior Member
    اُردو Urdu
    @iskander e azam صاحب

    It's been a while and nobody's answered your question. Perhaps you would like to ask the question in English instead?
    A follow-up question: Why do you think that the meaning of this saying should be 'When is this trouble going to end'? Is there perchance some context in which the idiom is used that makes you think so?
     

    iskander e azam

    Senior Member
    English
    @iskander e azam صاحب

    It's been a while and nobody's answered your question. Perhaps you would like to ask the question in English instead?
    A follow-up question: Why do you think that the meaning of this saying should be 'When is this trouble going to end'? Is there perchance some context in which the idiom is used that makes you think so?
    Friends,

    Platts gives the following definition for the phrase شام کے مردے کو کب تک روئیے:

    'How long can you weep for one who died at eventide?' — used to express a circumstance which is likely to prove a matter of life-long regret. (The expression is taken from the custom, among the relations of a dead person, of venting loud lamentations while the corpse remains in the house. If the death happens in the morning, the body is soon removed; but if towards evening, it remains till next morning; in which case the mourners are apt to be overtaken by sleep).

    For me, it does not sound right. From the definition Platts gives I do not see how it can mean "a circumstance which is likely to prove a matter of life-long regret." Platts is an authority but no-one is beyond question. To me, it sounds more appropriate to use the phrase when breaking off from some vain endeavour.

    Any thoughts, anyone?

    Best wishes,

    Alex
     

    marrish

    Senior Member
    اُردو Urdu
    You might be right or maybe are not. I would just love to share some more thoughts if I have them if you agree to do the same, I just prefer answering within a context in front of me, which can be your reasoning, lacking a quote that cites a sentence before and a sentence after this idiom. Can you just explain your thoughts in a few words?

    Just to kick-start, sharing one definition/explanation in my possession. Please do not hesitate to comment on it:

    شام کے مرے کو کہاں تک روئیے: ابھی سے یہ کام شروع ہوا تو کب تک اس کی خبرداری ہو گی طاقت سے زیادہ ہے۔
    shaam ke mare ko kahaaN tak ro'iye: abhii se yih kaam shuruu3 hu'aa to kab tak is kii xabardaarii ho gii, taaqat se ziyaadah hae.

    امید ہے دیگر حضرات بھی شامل ہو جائیں گے!۔
     
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    aevynn

    Senior Member
    USA
    English, Hindustani
    I also have not heard this proverb used myself, so everything below should be taken with a grain of salt. Or maybe a large heaping of salt.

    Just in case we have a forum friend who's heard this proverb used and who doesn't read Urdu, the proverb in question is shaam ke murde ko kab tak roiye. [This roiye is yet another one of these non-imperative -iye forms, it seems like!] This proverb bears some similarity with a line in this sher [also in Nagari], but I have to admit that I don't really understand this sher.

    @marrish saahib's resource seems to suggest a variant, shaam ke mare ko kab tak roiye. When I googled this in Nagari, there were a few hits but using different verb conjugations: shaam ke mare ko kab tak rove/rooge/ronaa (and also one that used sanjhaa in place of shaam!). The Rajpal Kahavat Kosh translated the proverb as "To mourn for the departed is quite in vain." There were just two usages which had some context around them, and in context the proverb basically seemed to mean something like, "That's enough complaining!" Also, both of these usages prefixed their invocation of the proverb with a note about who they heard it from: one said buzurgoN, the other said ammaa. So maybe this proverb is not something that is alive and kicking among younger and more internet-proficient HU speakers.

    In any case, based on this very limited data, I suppose @iskander e azam's suggestion about "breaking off from some vain endeavor" seems about right, perhaps with the caveat that the vain endeavor in question might specifically be mourning/complaining/etc about something.
     

    Qureshpor

    Senior Member
    Panjabi, Urdu پنجابی، اردو
    From a little bit of searching here and there, it seems this line is part of a couplet by Dulhan Begum, wife of Mirza Asafu_ddaulah of Awadh.

    jaa phaNsaa dil zulf meN ab soiye
    shaam ke murde ko kab tak roiye

    jaa phaNsaa dil zulf meN ab ham so'eN
    shaam ke murde ko ham kab tak ro'eN

    1st line: I have madly fallen in love. There is not much else I can do to get out of it. It's gtting pretty late at night and high time I went to sleep!

    2nd line: This is obviously connected with the first and is a further explanation of the situation the poet is in.

    It is customary amongst Muslims to bury the dead as soon as practicable.

    If a person were to die early in the day, his/her loved ones have pretty much all day to mourn, wait for loved ones who live a long way away for their participation and then the person is provided with the ritual washing before burial followed by funeral prayers. However when a person dies in the latter part of the day, say in the evening, there is a dilemma. Should s/he be buried the same evening or the next day. Either way, one can wail and cry for only so long. One needs to go to sleep at *some* stage... just as the poet needs to go to sleep sooner or later.

    I hope this explanation makes some sort of sense.

    Edit: I know marrish SaaHib has offered an explanation of this idiom. In another book this idiom is given the meaning as, "saarii 3umr ke jhaghRe kii kyaa shikaayat".
     
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    marrish

    Senior Member
    اُردو Urdu
    Yet another one says

    شام کے مردے کو کب تک روئیے: جو شخص شام کو مرے اسے دوسرے دن جلاتے ہیں۔ اس لیے وارثوں کو رات بھر رونا پڑتا ہے۔ جو تکلیف گزر گئی اس کی شکایت فضول ہے۔
    shaam ke murde ko kab tak ro'iye: jo shaxs shaam ko mare use duusre din jalaate haiN, is liye waarisoN ko raat bhar ronaa paRtaa hae. jo takliif guzar ga'ii us kii shikaayat fuzuul hae.

    BTW Baawaa Platts is not the one who penned the explanation cited in post #3, he perused this definition from an older dictionary.
     
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    aevynn

    Senior Member
    USA
    English, Hindustani
    jaa phaNsaa dil zulf meN ab soiye
    shaam ke murde ko kab tak roiye
    Thank you for the explanation! It seems that the sher has a typo on Rekhta (Dhoiye instead of roiye). This did seem rather weird; begam saahibaa murde ko lekar *Dhote* kyuuN phir rahii haiN?!

    جو تکلیف گزر گئی اس کی شکایت فضول ہے۔
    jo takliif guzar ga'ii us kii shikaayat fuzuul hae.
    This description matches the usages I found in Nagari on the internet fairly well!
     

    Alfaaz

    Senior Member
    English
    A few potentially relevant (in the sense that they convey similar sentiments) quotes from poetry:

    موت آتی نہیں کہیں غالبؔ
    کب تک افسوس زیست کا کیجے

    مرزا غالب

    ہو چکا ہونا تھا جو اب دل کو کیا سمجھائیں ہم
    اپے غم کی داستان کیا زباں پہ لائیں ہم


    مسرور انور از پاکستانی اُردو فلم سوغات (١٩٧٠)

    اب نہ دہرا فسانہ ہائے الم
    اپنی قسمت پہ سوگوار نہ ہو
    فکرِ فردا اتار دے دل سے
    عمر رفتہ پہ اشکبار نہ ہو
    عہدِ غم کی حکایتیں مت پوچھ
    ہو چکیں سب شکایتیں مت پوچھ
    آج کی رات سازِ درد نہ چھیڑ

    فیض احمد فیض
     

    iskander e azam

    Senior Member
    English
    Friends,

    It has just occurred to me that شام کے مردے کو کب تک روئیے could be used as a spur to action. If something cannot be put off (in the saying it is sleep) then why put it off? Do it now!

    However, I have no evidence it is used in this manner.

    Best wishes,

    Alex
     

    mannoushka

    Senior Member
    Iran/Persian
    This sentence means something in Persian, too. Could anyone please tell me whether or not the meaning in Urdu is the same: “to die in the evening is to be but a lone star.”
     
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    Qureshpor

    Senior Member
    Panjabi, Urdu پنجابی، اردو
    Salaam mannoushka. The Urdu sentence could be translated into Persian something like this.

    تا کی مردہء شام گاہ را گریہ کنیم؟

    یعنی کسیکہ بوقتِ شام مردہ است تا کی برایش گریہ کنیم؟
     

    mannoushka

    Senior Member
    Iran/Persian
    Thank you. It can only be a coincidence that the Persian ‘reading’ also sounds like an informally worded proverb:
    شام که مُردی، کوکبِ تک‌‌‌‌رویی.

    Of course there is to my knowledge no such expression in existence.
     

    Qureshpor

    Senior Member
    Panjabi, Urdu پنجابی، اردو
    Another meaning that I have been able to find is this.

    "shaam ke murde ko ko'ii kab tak ro'e"

    "ek masal hai. us shaxs par yaa us chiiz par kahte haiN jis ka Gham-o-andoh hameshah rahtaa ho."
     

    marrish

    Senior Member
    اُردو Urdu
    Another meaning that I have been able to find is this.

    "shaam ke murde ko ko'ii kab tak ro'e"

    "ek masal hai. us shaxs par yaa us chiiz par kahte haiN jis ka Gham-o-andoh hameshah rahtaa ho."
    QP SaaHib, these two definitions appear to be almost equivalent, aren't they? One of them could have been the source of another.
    Platts gives the following definition for the phrase شام کے مردے کو کب تک روئیے:

    'How long can you weep for one who died at eventide?' — used to express a circumstance which is likely to prove a matter of life-long regret. (The expression is taken from the custom...)
    As for the dating of the above given definition, it appears in Shakespear for the first time — [edit:] published as early as in 1834 vs Platts 1884.
     
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    Qureshpor

    Senior Member
    Panjabi, Urdu پنجابی، اردو
    Yes, you are right marrish SaaHib. It seems such a long time ago that I had forgotten a similar explanation had been offered before! Frankly, I am still not convinced as to the exact meaning of this saying. My input was from a book by Jalal Lakhnavi.
     

    marrish

    Senior Member
    اُردو Urdu
    I believe I am able to imagine quite well that digging through sources of merit for reference is a time consuming activity, what's more it often becomes a journey through past centuries, along which some tempting curiosities guarantee the necessary distraction. Thank you for sharing the name of the author of the book - Jalal Lakhnavi was born in 1832 and died in 1909.
     
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