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  • machadinho

    Senior Member
    Português do Brasil
    I'm afraid I don't really understand the logic behind this idea [...] when the sole object of this would be to allow members to circumvent a rule which is quite clearly set out in the terms and conditions that everybody had to agree to when they join.
    You're able to understand this:
    The purpose of such a software capability would be, not to enable members to break it, but to make Rule 2 obsolete.
    Therefore, you're actually able to understand the logic behind that idea. But I won't insist. I just wanted to help.
     

    swift

    Senior Member
    Spanish – Costa Rica (Valle Central)
    That would be the outcome if rule 2 becomes obsolete. :(
     

    L'irlandais

    Senior Member
    Ireland: English-speaking ♂
    Concealing posts would be removing them from the public view. Add to this that a private message can be sent multiple members at the same time. Surely that provides all the aspects you are looking for, apart from momentarily posting an off topic chat/comment in the public forums. :confused:
     

    swift

    Senior Member
    Spanish – Costa Rica (Valle Central)
    Not if it becomes obsolete thanks to a new piece of code that fulfills what Rule 2 enforces.
    Ok, so the off-topic comments will be hidden. That stills fundamentally changes the nature and purpose of these forums.
     

    Circunflejo

    Senior Member
    Castellano de Castilla
    This would increase the number of complaints to moderators / the administrator because many people would feel that their posts were unchatty enough not to be hidden.
    I'm not fully convinced about @machadinho's idea but, definitely, the expected increase on the number of complains to moderator shouldn't be a reason to disregard it because that problem has an easy solution: more staff.

    To turn the forums into chat boards? To walk away from the original vision for these forums, which is to complement the dictionaries?
    I thought you didn't like that sort of answers but I'm glad to see that you too like them.
     

    swift

    Senior Member
    Spanish – Costa Rica (Valle Central)
    Hey, @rarabara. It looks like the purpose and vision of the forum you refer to are substantially different from those of WRF. I think learning a new language could be a side benefit of engaging in WRF threads, but the main goal of these forums is to work as dictionary entries. In fact, the members and visitors who are more likely to realize the value of WRF are individuals whose proficiency in their native language and second language(s) is high, because of the complexity of the topics and translations that are discussed.
     

    rarabara

    Senior Member
    Turkish
    Hey, @rarabara. It looks like the purpose and vision of the forum you refer to are substantially different from those of WRF. I think learning a new language could be a side benefit of engaging in WRF threads, but the main goal of these forums is to work as dictionary entries.
    that is ok. but some speculative conversations ,I think, are warmer and more modern in style. modernity/modernism requires good communication.

    In fact, the members and visitors who are more likely to realize the value of WRF are individuals whose proficiency in their native language and second language(s) is high, because of the complexity of the topics and translations that are discussed.
    this does not mean that, that forum (also) did not include such members.
     

    rarabara

    Senior Member
    Turkish
    I would love to understand what you mean by that. Would you mind describing what kind of conversations are you looking for?
    I mean some side specifications might be good for this website if a revision is considered.
     

    swift

    Senior Member
    Spanish – Costa Rica (Valle Central)
    I mean some side specifications might be good for this website if a revision is considered.
    I see. Well, to your point:
    this does not mean that, that forum (also) did not include such members.
    Imagine how challenging and frustrating it would be for a newbie to identify the straightforward answer to their questions if the thread contains side comments that are unrelated to the main topic.
     

    swift

    Senior Member
    Spanish – Costa Rica (Valle Central)
    ... unless they're hidden, though not deleted...
    Which requires 1) implementing a code (with increased operating cost); 2) replacing an existing mechanism that works perfectly fine for hundreds of forum members and dozens of moderators with a new mechanism that could potentially lead to a lot of unnecessary churn and endless back-and-forth discussions between Senior Members and moderators. You didn’t explain yet how you envision Senior Members implementing the code you’re advocating for. Could other Senior Members or the post author remove the code and undo the changes? How do you prevent misuse of those powers? :)
     

    rarabara

    Senior Member
    Turkish
    I see. Well, to your point:
    Imagine how challenging and frustrating it would be for a newbie to identify the straightforward answer to their questions if the thread contains side comments that are unrelated to the main topic.
    not for the whole of forum, maybe some specific part(s) be set for that. I cannot provide very clear or transparent suggestion but the thing I imagine might provide an option to the website to be more crowded and more qualified.
    I can develop websites only for presentations (not forums) in the current position. therefore, I cannot provide a very clear suggestion.
    but to me, as you are about to repeat a point or already repeating that point, I also would like to remind one of my honest and parallel idea to my previous expression: "it does not seem aesthetical also to let a door remain open, amongst multilinguals for argument. "
     

    swift

    Senior Member
    Spanish – Costa Rica (Valle Central)
    not for the whole of forum, maybe some specific part(s) be set for that.
    Over the years, the forums have expanded their capabilities to a wider scope of discussions in some contained areas. You may want to explore some of those within a few months, because they require you to be a member for at least 6 months, which allows a reasonable window for you to become more familiar with the overall WRF atmosphere, rules and culture, provided that you are a regular participant. :)
    "it does not seem aesthetical also to remain a door open, amongst multilinguals for argument. "
    I am afraid I don’t fully grasp this portion of your post. :( Perhaps you could tell us in your native language? :)
     

    machadinho

    Senior Member
    Português do Brasil
    Which requires 1) implementing a code (with increased operating cost);
    Yep, on the assumption we face a trade-off between such costs and user frustration.
    2) replacing an existing mechanism that works perfectly fine for hundreds of forum members and dozens of moderators with a new mechanism that could potentially lead to a lot of unnecessary churn and endless back-and-forth discussions between Senior Members and moderators.
    Perfectly fine? :oops: Please have a look at the OP.
    You didn’t explain yet how you envision Senior Members implementing the code you’re advocating for.
    I have no idea. I meant software, computer code, not a code of conduct.
    How do you prevent misuse of those powers? :)
    I don't. I would let users regulate themselves.
     

    swift

    Senior Member
    Spanish – Costa Rica (Valle Central)
    Thanks for your effort to make your thoughts more transparent, @rarabara. I appreciate it. :) If I understand you well, you are saying some debates you have witnessed are unpleasant? I believe many users can relate to what Velisarius mentioned some time ago:
    I'm not going to disclose which forums I visit as a learner, but I admit it sometimes fills me with despair when I see how some members seem to be more intent on displaying their impressive scholarship than helping a beginner-learner with basic explanations. It has certainly put me off asking questions myself. If a learner is not very expert in the language, it's very difficult to follow a loose, rambling thread. I sometimes come away feeling more confused than I was to begin with.
    That’s an unpleasant experience as well.
    I don't. I would let users regulate themselves.
    OK, so do moderators, which is why they only intervene when there are violations! Wouldn’t the same self-regulating principle apply with the current rules? Think of it.
    I have no idea. I meant software, computer code, not a code of conduct.
    That’s even worse! It would require a sophisticated AI that also understands the psychology of forum members who think their side comments are so precious they need to be preserved at all costs. Imagine the number of complaints to moderators because the code is acting up or “censoring” reasonable content.
    Perfectly fine? :oops: Please have a look at the OP.
    Yes, it works perfectly fine for the vast majority of the forum members. Those who insist in circumventing the rules will face the consequences, as it is explained in the forum rules they agreed to upon joining. :)
    Multiple members, not all members, including future members and otherwiser uninvited ones.
    What makes you believe that those side comments will be relevant to all the participants or future members?
     
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    L'irlandais

    Senior Member
    Ireland: English-speaking ♂
    ... that problem has an easy solution: more staff.
    .
    Are you volunteering to moderate ? Because I don’t believe moderators are paid staff, but rather enthusiastic volunteers. The solution only appears simple to you because you are not concerned with having to find these additional volunteers. Like I said earlier, a complete lack of empathy for Mike Kellogg and his team.
     

    swift

    Senior Member
    Spanish – Costa Rica (Valle Central)
    The solution only appears simple to you because you are not concerned with having to find these additional volunteers. Like I said earlier, a complete lack of empathy for Mike Kellogg and his team.
    :thumbsup:
     

    DonnyB

    Sixties Mod
    English UK Southern Standard English
    Yep, on the assumption we face a trade-off between such costs and user frustration.

    Perfectly fine? :oops: Please have a look at the OP.

    I have no idea. I meant software, computer code, not a code of conduct.

    I don't. I would let users regulate themselves.
    The problem, though, with what you're suggesting, is that Mike has no incentive to do it. WRF is run as a business: the forums are a free adjunct to the dictionary part of the site which pays the bills, and like any astute businessman, he likes to keep his customers happy and part of the purpose of this forum is to facilitate feedback.

    But the 'trade-off' is the cost of implementing any software upgrades against the benefit in terms of making the site run more smoothly and efficiently. I'm afraid making Rule 2 "obsolete" doesn't enter into that equation. Allowing users to regulate themselves is a recipe for disaster: if they could be relied upon to do that, there would be no need for moderators and all posts would conform to the rules which are in place.
     

    machadinho

    Senior Member
    Português do Brasil
    What makes you believe that those side comments will be relevant to all the participants or future members?
    I don't believe that. Side comments are irrelevant by definition.
    That’s even worse! It would require a sophisticated AI that also understands the psychology of forum members who think their side comments are so precious they need to be preserved at all costs. Imagine the number of complaints to moderators because the code is acting up or “censoring” reasonable content.
    I failed to make myself clear. The additional computer code would simply allow senior members to hide or unhide some posts for newcomers to a thread. That's all.
    The problem, though, with what you're suggesting, is that Mike has no incentive to do it.
    Maybe he does. This thread makes me wonder if moderators and the administrator acknowledge the issue to begin with.
     
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    Circunflejo

    Senior Member
    Castellano de Castilla
    The solution only appears simple to you because you are not concerned with having to find these additional volunteers.
    Do you mean that there wouldn't be enough volunteers to moderate the forums with more traffic? I don't think so. (Less that) 5 days (with a week-end in between) were enough to create a group of volunteers to build WR's Catalan/Spanish dictionary (still under construction) and the number of potential candidates was way way lower than those that you would have in any of the forums with more traffic and the extra staff that you would need to cope with the extra reports would be lower too that the number of members of the group of volunteers building the quoted dictionary. Sincerely, I don't envision a shortage of candidates to moderate as a possible problem but maybe I'm too optimistic and a previous step would be needed to play it safe: to see if you have enough candidates to increase the moderators team. However, if people really like the new feature but don't want to volunteer to make it a reality, they don't really deserve the new feature. Anyway, that's not the main point here, I think the main point is if @machadinho's idea would be a good one and I'm not sure yet.
     

    swift

    Senior Member
    Spanish – Costa Rica (Valle Central)
    Creating a dictionary is substantially different from moderating a forum.
     

    DonnyB

    Sixties Mod
    English UK Southern Standard English
    This thread makes me wonder if moderators and the administrator acknowledge the issue to begin with.
    Well, having contributed a total of fifteen of the 180 posts so far in this thread, along with contributions from at least two other moderators, to try and address some of the points people have raised, I'm afraid I find that hard to reconcile with the proposition that moderators don't "acknowledge the issue". :(
     

    machadinho

    Senior Member
    Português do Brasil
    But the 'trade-off' is the cost of implementing any software upgrades against the benefit in terms of making the site run more smoothly and efficiently. I'm afraid making Rule 2 "obsolete" doesn't enter into that equation. Allowing users to regulate themselves is a recipe for disaster: if they could be relied upon to do that, there would be no need for moderators and all posts would conform to the rules which are in place.
    I agree. I meant to say to regulate each other instead of themselves.
    Well, having contributed a total of fifteen of the 180 posts so far in this thread, along with contributions from at least two other moderators, to try and address some of the points people have raised, I'm afraid I find that hard to reconcile with the proposition that moderators don't "acknowledge the issue". :(
    Sorry. I shouldn't have said that.
     

    rarabara

    Senior Member
    Turkish
    Thanks for your effort to make your thoughts more transparent, @rarabara. I appreciate it. :) If I understand you well, you are saying some debates you have witnessed are unpleasant? I believe many users can relate to what Velisarius mentioned some time ago:
    That’s an unpleasant experience as well.
    that was presumably different implication. but I am unsure what you expect by your this wording ["high"]:

    in fact, the members and visitors who are more likely to realize the value of WRF are individuals whose proficiency in their native language and second language(s) is high, because of the complexity of the topics and translations that are discussed.
    if you expect me to write rather literal poems ,then sorry,I think I can't
    but if you expect me to write academic articles in refereed and trusted journals,I think I can do that perfectly (in english)
    just one point; when the flow is too fast here or at some other forums, some failures are happening but generally are corrected by my revision/edition.

    meanwhile, turkish and kurdish are my native languages.I am highly professional in these languages.
     
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    swift

    Senior Member
    Spanish – Costa Rica (Valle Central)
    I would say learners with at least a B1+ or B2 level, @rarabara, would benefit the most from these forums, considering the style and other speech elements. :)
     

    L'irlandais

    Senior Member
    Ireland: English-speaking ♂
    A couple of interesting pages publicly available on WR
    We currently have a team of 44 moderators(+ 1 lapsed moderator)
    Staff members

    The dictionaries have 20 editors listed
    Dictionary editors
    There is some cross over, with 2 mods on that team.

    Only one person (outside of Mike) is listed as WR staff.

    I have no idea how many active members there are on WR, but suggest that those advocating increasing the moderator team to cater for off topic chat are totally out of touch with the aims of WR, this is no chat board. I suggest that far from being easy to increase the number of moderators, the reality is it is far from simple to retain existing moderators, due to members not respecting the forum rules.
     

    DonnyB

    Sixties Mod
    English UK Southern Standard English
    The moderators here are out of control. I don't participate much anymore for that reason.
    I hope you'll forgive me for repeating the answer I give in post #179:
    Well, having contributed a total of fifteen of the 180 posts so far in this thread, along with contributions from at least two other moderators, to try and address some of the points people have raised, I'm afraid I find that hard to reconcile with the proposition that moderators don't "acknowledge the issue". :(
    If we (the mods) were, as you evidently feel, "out of control" we wouldn't bother. We'd simply delete your post and probably the rest of the thread as well, and have done with it. The reason we haven't done is to try and address members' legitimate concerns over all this. You may or may not see it, but I care about how moderation is perceived and am perfectly willing to try and explain - privately if need be - why we take the decisions we do.

    Having said that, it's entirely up to you, obviously, how much you choose to participate in the forum.
     
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