stress rule for -ομενος

OssianX

Senior Member
English (USA)
As I understand it, when an -ομενος word is functioning as a passive past participle, the stress always goes on the -μέν- syllable. But when the word is more an adjective (which might mean that though derived from the participle it's frequent enough in adjectival use that it gets detached from that pattern?), sometimes the stress seems to retreat to the -όμενος instead; but I think not always.

If I'm right about all that (a big "if"!), is there any rule that predicts when the stress does retreat and when it doesn't?
 
  • elliest_5

    Senior Member
    UK
    Greek
    As I understand it, when an -ομενος word is functioning as a passive past participle, the stress always goes on the -μέν- syllable. But when the word is more an adjective (which might mean that though derived from the participle it's frequent enough in adjectival use that it gets detached from that pattern?), sometimes the stress seems to retreat to the -όμενος instead; but I think not always.

    If I'm right about all that (a big "if"!), is there any rule that predicts when the stress does retreat and when it doesn't?
    Actually it is a matter of different tense: participles in -όμενος/ώμενος are present participles, while participles in -μένος are perfect participles.

    Compare the following:

    λυόμενος (who is being solved/let loose) - λυμένος (has been solved/let loose)

    κοιμώμενος (who is sleeping) - κοιμισμένος (who has fallen asleep - although still sleeping, emphasis is on the fact that he fell asleep)

    λουόμενος (who is bathing) - λουσμένος (who has had a bath/shower/hairwash)

    As you might have noticed, the present participle is a bit archaic and it is not used that often.
     

    OssianX

    Senior Member
    English (USA)
    Ah! Thank you! (as always)

    I ran into this with συμπεριλαμβανόμενος and συμπεριλαμβανομένος, and was thoroughly mystified. Now I understand.

    The present participle isn't mentioned in the verb tables in my Oxford Learner's; on the other hand, the modern-greek-verbs.tripod.com site mentions the present participle but not the perfect one. Trying to learn Greek is sharpening my detective skills.
     

    elliest_5

    Senior Member
    UK
    Greek
    What you should also be a bit careful about is that present and perfect participles have different stems - that is, you need to derive the participle for each tense using the verbal stem of that specific tense and you also need to take into consideration the stem (thematic) vowel (the vowel that precedes the inflectional ending):

    (for the present, in many cases you need to use the ancient form of the verb, since the present participle is archaic)

    κοιμ -ώμαι --> κοιμ-ώμενος Vs κοιμί-σ-τηκα (this form is not in use) --> κοιμι-σ-μένος

    εξασκ-ούμαι --> εξασκ-ούμενος Vs έχω εξασκ-ηθεί --> εξασκ-ημένος

    συμπεριλαμβάν-ομαι --> συμπεριλαμβαν-όμενος Vs έχω συμπερι-ληφ-θεί --> συμπερι-ληφ-θείς (this is actually the ancient passive aorist participle, because the past perfect form "είλημμαι" is not in use)

    So, about "συμπεριλαμβανόμενος": this is the only correct form of the present participle. "συμπεριλαμβανομένος" does not exist. Maybe you were confused with the other inflectional cases of the participle which go like this:

    Sing.
    Nom. συμπεριλαμβανόμενος
    Gen. συμπεριλαμβανομένου
    Acc. συμπεριλαμβανόμενο
    Plur.
    Nom. συμπεριλαμβανόμενοι
    Gen. συμπεριλαμβανομένων
    Acc. συμπεριλαμβανόμενους / συμπεριλαμβανομένους (modern/ancient)
     
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    OssianX

    Senior Member
    English (USA)
    Oh -- absolutely right, it was running across συμπεριλαμβανομένου in my dictionary that trapped me, with its stress shift back toward the end because of (presumably) the "long" -ου.

    Thank you again. I shall probably not attempt to form these myself. But occasionally I run across one in a title, in ALL CAPS, with no accent mark, so this helps. And I'm very glad to have the background information, including the crucial tense difference.
     

    Helleno File

    Senior Member
    English - UK
    I very recently found this old thread after trying to figure out some participles that seemed strange to me: υποσχόμενος (promising - καιρός, παίκτης) and ευνοούμενος (favourite as in favoured person). It shows what a fantastic resource this forum is :thumbsup:. There is no mention of present participles in Horton et al's Essential Greek Grammar.

    One of my "strange participles" is ο προϊστάμενος - head or person in charge, principal. Why is it η προϊσταμένη?
     

    dmtrs

    Senior Member
    Greek
    Some words are treated in modern Greek as they would in ancient Greek, they are treated as 'archaic' or even as 'relics' although they are widely used today. Προϊσταμένη is one of these cases.
    Other examples:
    [similar participles:] υπογεγραμμένη, εφαπτομένη, συνισταμένη...
    [some words in vocative case:] (κύριε) διευθυντά, μεγαλειωτάτη...
    [names of streets, squares etc.:] (οδός) Αχιλλέως, Μητροπόλεως, Βασιλίσσης Σοφίας...
    [participles used as nouns or adjectives:] παρών (-ούσα, -όν), προσόν, παρελθόν, περιβάλλον, καθεστώς...
    The list can be veeeery long.
     

    Helleno File

    Senior Member
    English - UK
    Απ' όλα έχει ο μπαξές! Could be said as much about your post as the Greek language itself, dmtrs :D.

    Naturally tough for learners without knowledge of AG it's part of the interest and challenge of learning the modern language. I had at least heard of/used παρών type adjectives. Do Greek school children still call out "παρών/παρούσα" every morning?

    I guess I'll just have to learn the "strange" present participles on a case by case basis - I knew υπογεγράμμενος with its beautiful reduplication but not that it was another stress shifter. I haven't paid much attention to street names till now but will from here on on. As for feminine vocatives I might hide under the bed for a while.

    The other issue is that while many archaicisms are common, some in dictionaries now aren't and some are going out of style. I think μέλλων as an adjective is being overtaken by μελλοντικός, although το μέλλον continues in fine health.

    "Veeeery long...." :eek:
     

    dmtrs

    Senior Member
    Greek
    Do Greek school children still call out "παρών/παρούσα" every morning?
    It's common, though many (in less strict schools or teaching circumstances) prefer to say ''εδώ'' ["(I'm) here!"].

    I knew υπογεγράμμενος
    In fact this is υπογεγραμμένος, υπογεγραμμένη, υπογεγραμμένο(ν) and it's a present perfect participle -hence the reduplication (which is the actual archaism); similarly δεδομένος, τετελεσμένος, πεπερασμένος, σεσημασμένος, (πε)πεισμένος...

    I think μέλλων as an adjective is being overtaken by μελλοντικός
    True, but still in use, especially in some phrases like "ο μέλλων σύζυγός μου", "ο μέλλων πρωθυπουργός" where, I think, "μέλλων" stresses the imminence of the expectation while "μελλοντικός" refers to a not necessarily near future.
     

    Αγγελος

    Senior Member
    Greek
    I ran into this with συμπεριλαμβανόμενος and συμπεριλαμβανομένος, and was thoroughly mystified. Now I understand.
    συμπεριλαμβανομένος does NOT exist. The verb λαμβάνω and its compounds do not have a passive perfect participle in modern Greek. The ancient participle was ειλημμένος, which is still encountered on occasion, mainly in the compounds κατειλημμένος (=taken, occupied (of a seat), busy (of a phone line or an elevator)), ανειλημμένος (only in the expression ανειλημμένες υποχρεώσεις = prior commitments, engagements) and προκατειλημμένος (=prejudiced).

    Also, ALL perfect passive participles, whether in their ancient (reduplicated) or modern (unreduplicated) form are stressed on the penult: δεμένος, γραμμένος, φαγωμένος -- διακεκριμένος (=distinguished, eminent), περιγεγραμμένος (=circumscribed), καταβεβλημένος (=under the weather, from καταβάλλομαι; can also be used in the literal sense, =paid out). That stress is fixed in their declension.
    Present passive participles are stressed on the antepenult: ερχόμενος, εργαζόμενος, τιμώμενος, αποτελούμενος, παριστάμενος, εκτιθέμενος... That ought to be the case for their inflectional forms as well, but when the participle is used as a noun (as with ο προϊστάμενος) it often moves to the penult when the inflectional ending is 'long' (i.e. was long in ancient Greek): η προϊσταμένη / του προϊσταμένου.
     

    Helleno File

    Senior Member
    English - UK
    Thanks so much dmtrs and Αγγελε. There's so much to work on in your posts! I'm realising that present passive participles are much more common than I thought and actually I've been using them without noticing! Can I check that κινούμενο σχέδιο (lovely expression!) is a present passive participle. And the same for ενοικιαζόμενα δωμάτια which is one of the first phrases you learn in tourist Greek and later ~α αυτοκίνητα.

    @Αγγελος are the perfect participles κατηλειμμένος etc in common useage in the spoken language.

    It might be time to upgrade my Greek grammar!
     
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    Αγγελος

    Senior Member
    Greek
    Can I check that κινούμενο σχέδιο (lovely expression!) is a present passive participle. And the same for ενοικιαζόμενα δωμάτια which is one of the first phrases you learn in tourist Greek and later ~α αυτοκίνητα.
    Yes, that's exactly what they are. Note that the perfect participle νοικιασμένο δωμάτιο means a room that is already rented (and is therefore not available for rent).

    are the perfect participles κατηλειμμένος etc in common useage in the spoken language.
    It is spelled κατειλημμένος , and yes, it is the usual word for a busy elevator. For a seat or a table, πιασμένο (=taken) would be a more colloquial equivalent.
    προκατειλημμένος is the word for 'prejudiced'. προκατάληψη = prejudice, preconceived idea.
    ανειλημμένες υποχρεώσεις is not a phrase one learns at one's mother's knee, but is definitely in use, even in casual conversation.
     

    ioanell

    Member
    Greek
    Hi, Helleno File,

    are the perfect participles κατηλειμμένος etc in common useage in the spoken language.
    Just an addition to the examples offered by Αγγελος, regarding the passive participle ειλημμένος: ειλημμένη απόφαση (=decision already made)

    One of my "strange participles" is ο προϊστάμενος - head or person in charge, principal. Why is it η προϊσταμένη?
    I have the impression that the answer to the question “Why is it η προϊσταμένη?”, (although there has been an explanation that the stress shifts to the penultimate when the ending is long, as in the feminine προϊσταμένη and all similar participles), could receive a little more attention and elaboration. But what does a “long” ending mean?

    If the matter of the long ending in ancient Greek words is of any interest, let me say the following: The phonetics of ancient Greek was such that the accent, which was a (higher) pitch accent and not a (dynamic) stress accent, couldn’t come more than three syllables from the end of the word, regardless of the number of its syllables, and if the last syllable had a long vowel, the accent could’t come on the antepenultimate syllable; thus, regarding the masculine participle Ο ΠΡΟ-Ι-ΣΤΑ-ΜΕ-ΝΟΣ the pitch accent would come on the antepenultimate ΣΤΑ, while in the feminine ΠΡΟ-Ι-ΣΤΑ-ΜΕ-ΝΗ it would come on the penultimate ΜΕ. But this shift to the penultimate, although an outward one, was not visible in writing, as the writing in classical Greek was only in upper case letters, with no gaps between the words and there were no accent marks. Nevertheless, the accentuation continued to be on the third syllable from the right, that is on the antepenultimate. Why did this happen? Because the vowel Η (eta) in the ending of the feminine participle was a “long” one and this means it was pronounced as a long or double Ε, viz the pronunciation of the word ΠΡΟ-Ι-ΣΤΑ-ΜΕ-ΝΗ was ΠΡΟ-Ι-ΣΤΑ-ΜΕ-ΝΕ-Ε. Αs it is understood, the pitch accent could not remain οn the syllable ΣΤΑ, as in the masculine participle, and had to move to the penultimate, because it couldn’t be on the fourth syllable from the right, against the inborn law of Greek (classical and modern) phonetics. The same applies to the masculine participle ΠΡΟ-Ι-ΣΤΑ-ΜΕ-ΝΟΣ. When used in the genitive case ΠΡΟ-Ι-ΣΤΑ-ΜΕ-ΝΟΥ, which had a “long” ending ΟΥ, it was pronounced as ΠΡΟ-Ι-ΣΤΑ-ΜΕ-ΝΟ-Ü and the accent had to move from ΣΤΑ to ΜΕ, that is from the antepenultimate to the penultimate syllable for the same reason as above. Of course, the above are just examples of the accentuation of all similar participles or nouns.

    In the time of the Hellenistic Greek (Koine Greek), when major phonological changes in the Greek language took place, including the loss of the ancient distinction between long and short vowels, and more specifically from the second century BC onwards, the sound of the ETA (H) dropped from EE to a simple I (=i), and the Ancient Greek pitch accent was replaced by a stress accent. But, regardless of these changes, the stress continued falling on the same syllables. Now, in Modern Greek one can see and hear, can write and say both προϊστάμενη and προϊσταμένη (if used as an adjective), e.g. η προϊστάμενη/προϊσταμένη αρχή (=supervising authority), but only προϊσταμένη (=woman in charge, if used as a noun), e.g. head-nurse in a hospital department. That’s why, although in the nominative case we say Βασίλισσα, we say Λεωφόρος Βασιλίσσης (and not Βασίλισσης) Όλγας (=Queen Olga Avenue) when using the archaic-relic genitive.

    My apologies for the length of my post.
     

    bearded

    Senior Member
    Italian
    Having initially studied Ancient Greek at the Lyceum in Italy, my tendency while speaking (my modest) Modern Greek is to always apply the ancient stress rules to it, and sometimes Greeks look upon me in a strange way... ;). The fact that on the one hand many of the old rules have changed, but on the other hand many still apply to 'ancient remnants', often makes Mod.Greek stress real difficult for non-natives: I even dare say it is one major difficulty of this language.
     
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    Scholiast

    Senior Member
    Is it still in modern Greek, as it was in the classical language, the rule that participles ending -ομενος (in the nominative masc. sing.) are normally stressed -όμενος, but then receive an accentual shift to -ομένου in the genitive and -ομένους, -ομένων in the accusative and genitive plural?
    Σ
     

    Perseas

    Senior Member
    Greek
    Is it still in modern Greek, as it was in the classical language, the rule that participles ending -ομενος (in the nominative masc. sing.) are normally stressed -όμενος, but then receive an accentual shift to -ομένου in the genitive and -ομένους, -ομένων in the accusative and genitive plural?
    Σ
    In most cases it is -όμενου, -όμενων and όμενους. In oral speech this happens even more often.
     

    Αγγελος

    Senior Member
    Greek
    It is a general rule (with exceptions) that proparoxytonous adjectives in -ος keep their stress fixed throughout their declension, but the the same words used as nouns move it to the penult when the ending has an ου or an ω. Thus:
    Ο γιατρός έπιασε το χέρι του άρρωστου παιδιού but Ο γιατρός έπιασε το χέρι του αρρώστου.
    This does not apply to the feminine endings in -η: Ο γιατρός έπιασε το χέρι της άρρωστης.
    With present passive participles, however, the stress is moved even in the feminine form, when used as a noun:
    η συνισταμένη (=the resultant, e.g. of forces), η ευνοουμένη (=the favorite), η προϊσταμένη, etc.
     

    dmtrs

    Senior Member
    Greek
    η ευνοουμένη (=the favorite)
    I believe most of us would say ευνοούμενη; same thing with present participles in passive voice: εργαζόμενη, κρατούμενη, αποσπώμενη, τρεμάμενη...
     

    bearded

    Senior Member
    Italian
    Considering #18 and 19 above, my comment that stress is a major difficulty of Mod.Greek for non-natives does not appear far-fetched at all . ;)
     

    Αγγελος

    Senior Member
    Greek
    Considering #18 and 19 above, my comment that stress is a major difficulty of Mod.Greek for non-natives does not appear far-fetched at all . ;)
    I believe most of us would say ευνοούμενη; same thing with present participles in passive voice: εργαζόμενη, κρατούμενη, αποσπώμενη, τρεμάμενη...
    τρεμάμενη would hardly ever be used as a noun. As an adjective, of course it is proparoxytonous: με τρεμάμενη φωνή etc.
    Likewise with αποσπώμενη: if you mean 'a seconded female employee', you will most likely say αποσπασμένη (where the stress falls where it does because it is a perfect participle. The masculine is αποσπασμένος.
    But you are absolutely right about εργαζόμενη and κρατούμενη. Only a jailer might say "κρατουμένη, σήκω!"
    So yes, stress is a problem in Greek, But at least it is systematically indicated in writing!
     

    dmtrs

    Senior Member
    Greek
    τρεμάμενη would hardly ever be used as a noun.
    My mistake. Although I knew your comment was for present participles used as nouns, I kind of forgotten it when writing the last examples.
    My comment for ευνοούμενη is valid, though. (There's also a movie in the cinemas these days under that name!)
     

    Αγγελος

    Senior Member
    Greek
    Precisely, and I have seen the movie. But I say ευνοουμένη in that sense (the king's mistress), perhaps because I subconsciously feel that such an ancien régime word is best stressed according to the ancient rules :)
     

    dmtrs

    Senior Member
    Greek
    I see what you mean, Άγγελε. The variety of the Greek language that is perplexity to our foreign friends is also a valuable tool of differentiation to native speakers.
     

    Perseas

    Senior Member
    Greek
    Some words are treated in modern Greek as they would in ancient Greek, they are treated as 'archaic' or even as 'relics' although they are widely used today. Προϊσταμένη is one of these cases.
    Other examples:
    [similar participles:] υπογεγραμμένη, εφαπτομένη, συνισταμένη...
    [some words in vocative case:] (κύριε) διευθυντά, μεγαλειωτάτη...
    I agree, of course. Just a comment:
    About "εφαπτομένη", I think it's used so only in Mathematics, otherwise you can use "εφαπτόμενη".
    Also, I am not sure that "κύριε διευθυντά" is used today more than "κύριε διευθυντή", at least in oral speech.

    About "ευνοούμενη", I am also familiar with this form, but I understand Angelos' view.
     

    Helleno File

    Senior Member
    English - UK
    I've followed this discussion with great interest since I restarted the thread a couple of weeks ago as one of the "perplexed foreign friends" ;). I'm very grateful for all the detailed explanations and examples and am actually slightly less perplexed!

    I've realised I've been using another present participle - το περιεχόμενο - and I've recognise the pattern in a street name I've used - Πλατεία (και σταθμός) Δουκίσσης Πλακεντίας - where from the end of last year you annoyingly have to change train on the metro line from the airport to Athens city centre.

    Just to be completely clear in the context of participles final syllables with ω, η and ου were long in AG and continue to influence modern demotic. Were there other long vowels or diphthongs? I'm wondering about the very common pattern in feminine nouns: ερώτηση pl ερωτήσεις.
     

    dmtrs

    Senior Member
    Greek
    Were there other long vowels or diphthongs? I'm wondering about the very common pattern in feminine nouns: ερώτηση pl ερωτήσεις.
    Excellent sense of the language, Helleno File!
    Yes, this is the same pattern.
    In AG long vowels were η, ω and all diphthongs (αι, ει, οι, υι, ου, αυ, ευ, ηυ), except αι and οι at the very end of the word (not just in the last syllable); at times α, ι, υ could also be long vowels.
    Thus:
    ο άνθρωπος, τον άνθρωπο, άνθρωπε, (οι) άνθρωποι
    but:
    του ανθρώπου, των ανθρώπων, τους ανθρώπους.
    The case with ερώτηση is more complex; in AG the word was ερώτησις (short ι), so the stress could be on the third syllable, while in plural ερωτήσεις the stress had to move due to the long ει.
     

    Helleno File

    Senior Member
    English - UK
    Thanks dmtrs. Why am I not surprised that this is complicated! ;)

    The άνθρωπος declension is familiar and has occurred to me while reading this thread, so that too now makes sense :thumbsup:. Even more interesting is the case with the true diphthong in γάιδαρος, γαϊδάρου etc.

    I'm also aware of a minority of proparoxytone masculine and neuter nouns that do not follow this pattern. I think that would deserve a separate thread so it can be tracked down in future. Give me a few days and I'll start it.
     
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