Slavic and Indo-Iranian languages: similarities?

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Milosh

New Member
I am new to this forum, so maybe I missed something. As a native speaker of Serbian and a learner of Farsi I noticed some simmilarities:

verb "to be" in Farsi is budan, and in Serbian biti
The Present Tense of the verb budan/biti is:

Farsi Serbian Farsi Serbian
Singular Plural
1. hastam jesam (yesam) hastim jesmo (yesmo)
2. hasti jesi (yesi) hastid jeste (yeste)
3. hast jeste (yeste) hastand jesu (yesu

Negation:

1. nistam nisam nistim nismo
2. nisti nisi nistid niste
3. nist nije nistand nisu

Also verb "to give" in Farsi is dadan, and in Serbian is dati.
 
  • Frank06

    Senior Member
    Nederlands / Dutch (Belgium)
    Hi,
    Just a side question -- I always thought Indo-Aryan referred to the India part of Indo-Iranian (so Sanskrit, Hindi, Urdu, etc.) -- does it, or maybe did it use to, also have a broader meaning?
    Oops, you're right.

    Groetjes,

    Frank
     

    Tolovaj_Mataj

    Senior Member
    Slovene, Slovenia
    Hi,

    There are good reasons to connect the word Hrvat (<Proto Sl. *xurvat(in)u) (Croat) with Iranian *xar-wa(n)t. But here, 'Iranian' has to be understood as a linguistic term, the second part of the term 'Indo-Iranian', and not as 'from Iran', and that's a huge difference. Connections between Iranian and Slavic tribal names should not come as a surprise, due to the geographical proximity of the ancient homelands of speakers of Slavic and (some) Iranian languages (NW Pontic region). The Iranian etymology does not imply, however, that the Croations are Iranians (or Scythians, as I read somewhere), and certainly not that they came from Iran.
    I've just finished reading Patrick J Geary's "The myth of nations" in Slovene translation (of course). His theory about the Croats is far different from what you wrote above. Btw, he doesn't connect Slav peoples with Iranians at all. Unless you think that Avars = Iranians. He didn't write this anywhere.

    - a lot of loans due to Iranian (cultural) dominance in the Pontic region
    - the already mentioned centum-satem isoglos
    - the RUKI rule
    - some shared morphological features (see here, 1/3 of the page).
    I can only speak for Slovene. As I said before, I have played with this book: Snoj, Marko: Slovenski etimološki slovar http://cobiss4.izum.si/scripts/cobiss?ukaz=DISP&id=2308567460701612&rec=5&sid=1

    and I couldn't find any loans from Persian/Iranian if they were not loaned from Turkish through Serbian and Croatian. All panslavic words end somewhere in proto-Indo-European language. Well, you can say the author of this dictionary was biased, but this is the only ethimological dictionary of the contemporary Slovene language available.

    I guss I would believe you only if you find strong Persian influence on OCS language.

    I'll do my best to find more information on the 1st, 3rd and 4th point this weekend.
    Yes, please do.
     

    Frank06

    Senior Member
    Nederlands / Dutch (Belgium)
    Hi,
    I've just finished reading Patrick J Geary's "The myth of nations" in Slovene translation (of course). His theory about the Croats is far different from what you wrote above. Btw, he doesn't connect Slav peoples with Iranians at all. Unless you think that Avars = Iranians. He didn't write this anywhere.
    I could only read the digest of the book, and it sure looks interesting.

    But does he tell about the word Hrvat and Iranian *xar-wa(n)t?
    Does he say something about the various Slavic speaking tribes known as "Croats" which have roamed various areas including the area of Krakow on the upper Vistula (that is, in the low country north of the Carpathians), Subcarpathian Ukraine, etc.?

    I am the last one to believe that "Thee Croatians" came from "Persia". But that doesn't exclude that the word 'hrvat' has Iranian roots (see below for a note on Persian and Iranian).
    All in all, it's not more or less weird than 'Franks' and 'French', not more or less weird than the history of the (name of the) various peoples called 'Goths'.

    I can only speak for Slovene. As I said before, I have played with this book: Snoj, Marko: Slovenski etimološki slovar http://cobiss4.izum.si/scripts/cobiss?ukaz=DISP&id=2308567460701612&rec=5&sid=1
    I'll pm you a longer quote from another e-group. I can't put it here since it is against the WR rules. Nevertheless, the person who wrote it expressed his doubts about the suggested etymology.

    and I couldn't find any loans from Persian/Iranian if they were not loaned from Turkish through Serbian and Croatian.
    A quick search in some very general articles:

    - "
    A few spiritual elements were borrowed from the Indo-Iranian speech community: notably LCS *bogŭ 'god' and *bogatŭ 'rich' correspond to Avestan baga 'god', Sanskrit bhagas 'distributor' and bhagavant- 'honorable'..."
    Source and see here and here.

    I do agree that 2/3 words (so far) isn't particularly overwhelming, but I'll try to come back at this later.

    I couldn't find any further information about this one, but given your explanation, the article "Early Slavic-Indo-Iranian Lexical Contacts.- IN: Proceedings of the Annual UCLA Indo-European Conference, 2000" must be a very short one.
    [I'll ask around to see if I can get it from someone.]

    I guss I would believe you only if you find strong Persian influence on OCS language.
    Maybe I am nitpicking now, but please re-read what I wrote so far. I am not talking about Persian influence, I am talking about Iranian influence. This difference, which has been pointed out already in this thread, is quite crucial. In this whole context, Persian does not equal Iranian at all; and in this context, Iranian doesn't mean 'from Iran'.
    Nevertheless, I will do my best to come up with some more information.

    Slaapwel
    (Good night, it's late/early here :)

    Frank
     

    Frank06

    Senior Member
    Nederlands / Dutch (Belgium)
    Hi,

    The following might contain quite some repitions, so my apologies in advance. I added some extra information, and tried to sum up a few things. But alas I had to choose between the options 'enough spare time during the weekend minus the proper resources' and 'no time during the working week but plenty of resources in the local university library'.

    His [Geary's] theory about the Croats is far different from what you wrote above.
    I think here we stumble upon the first problem which sneaked into this thread. It has been pointed out by several people already that 'people' doesn't equal 'language', that genes don't talk, etc. So far, I haven't said a thing about 'the Croatians', I didn't say or meant to imply that one day the 'Croatians' took the train (or caravan, whatever) en masse, and leftPersia for nowadays Croatia. I'll leave that to the so-called "Irano-Croatianists", Hindutva "doctors", and other psuedo-linguists and historians on the fringe.
    I only said something about the name Hrvat. The best possible etymology of this name, though not without problems, connects 'Hrvat' with an Iranian word.
    Maybe it's too black and white a statement, but I have the impression that in ancient times names wandered around even more than people (in the sense of 'a group of persons', rather than 'tribe' or '(national) people'.)
    Genes, culture and languages are three separate things to consider, though are often lumped together and abused by so-called historians to make the wildest claims about the ethnogenesis of a 'people' (or 'nation', or 'tribe') X or Y.

    and I couldn't find any loans from Persian/Iranian if they were not loaned from Turkish through Serbian and Croatian. All panslavic words end somewhere in proto-Indo-European language.
    I can't follow this argument very well. Any which way, the quote above doesn't seem to exclude loans from (Indo-)Iranian languages (from now on IIr), since IIr languages belong to the very same IE language family. But that's probably not what you mean.
    Maybe you can start here.
    I am aware that this is a controversial topic, and that a lot of people disagree with a lot of other people, but following words are commonly believed to have IIr roots: *xorn-; bogú, *ave (OCS jave), *bergú, *xorniti, *radi, ...
    Others (I couldn't doublecheck): *gatati, *divъ, *rajь, *patriti, *sobaka, *toporъ, *xvala, *xata, ...

    I guss I would believe you only if you find strong Persian influence on OCS language.
    I don't understand this argument either. I am not here to claim a "strong Persian [or IIr] influence on OCS" or Proto-Slavic.
    The topic of this thread is 'Slavic and Indo-Iranian languages: similarities', not 'the Persian (or IIr) roots of Proto-Slavic' (which would indeed be nonsense).
    And here we have a second problem: the use of terms 'Persian', 'Iranian' and 'Indo-Iranian'. In short: Persian is an Iranian language, Iranian languages form a subgroup of the Indo-Iranian languages, which in itself is a subgroup of the IE language family. Iranian languages are not confined to Iran (or historical Persia), and in the context of historical comparative linguistics, 'Iranian' doesn't mean 'from (nowadays) Iran at all. I hope that we can agree upon this rather standard terminology by now.

    So far, I only gave a few indications that Slavic and Indo-Iranian languages share some features, share some similarities, and this from a historical linguistic point of view.

    The already mentioned centum-satem isoglos is quite important. IIr and Balto-Slavic are often called the 'core satem languages'. It is believed that the satem developments aren't independent changes, given the fact that the languages affected were more or less contiguous. The (cultural) area in which historians believe that (Proto-)Slavic - IIr contacts took place is the so-called Chernyakhov culture and in the Pontic steppes.
    Add to the Centum-Satem isogloss the RUKI rule, which are found in both Slavic and IIr languages. In short, PIE s > s^ (sh) before r u K i. (see here, here).
    Other phonetic similarities: Iranian loss of aspiration in voiced aspirated stops is shared by shared with Balto-Slavic. The morphological features shared by IIr and Slavic can be found here (1/3 of the page).

    All in all, it adds up when talking about similarities, no?

    Anyway, comments, additions, corrections and critiques are more than welcome.

    Groetjes,

    Frank
     

    chung

    Member
    English, ?
    Hi,

    The Satem/Centum 'division' (better: isoglos) as a concept is completely passé. Linguists in the late 19th century made a big deal out of it, because it seemed to be an isogloss that divided east from west. What remains of the so-called big important centum/satem division after the discovery of Tocharian et. al. are a few echoes. The c/s isogloss is not more or less important than the 70 (80?) other isoglosses. And that was my point. One isoglos, one single feature is surely not enough to account for a (dramatic) split. Otherwise said, the grouping of genetically related languages is based on neither one single isoglos, nor on phonetic _similarities_.

    Groetjes,

    Frank
    Given your latest posting, I don't understand your assertion that the concept of the centum/satem isogloss is completely passé, when what I had posted was that the centum/satem isogloss is still important, but just invalid as a way of dividing IE languages into centum = west and satem = eastern because of Tocharian.

    For the sake of your examples, it seems helpful in comparing Balto-Slavonic and Indo-Iranian, eh?

    Anyway, the idea of foreign names for ethnic groups is not restricted to 'Hrvat". In Hungary, the people call themselves "Magyar" (probably a compound of Finno-Ugric and Turkic) but many outside Hungary call them "Hungarian", "Hongrois", "Ungarisch", "Ungarese" etc. (a corruption of a probable Turkic compound). The Turkic name ("Hungarian" etc.) of the Magyars doesn't mean that these people were Turkic or were dominated by Turkic members in their tribes. (Magyars speak a Finno-Ugric language, but like many tribes in antiquity mixed with neighbouring peoples. Their biological origins show varying influences from Turko-Mongolian, Finno-Ugrian, Iranian and later Slavonic and Germanic people)
     

    Frank06

    Senior Member
    Nederlands / Dutch (Belgium)
    Hi,
    Given your latest posting, I don't understand your assertion that the concept of the centum/satem isogloss is completely passé, when what I had posted was that the centum/satem isogloss is still important, but just invalid as a way of dividing IE languages into centum = west and satem = eastern because of Tocharian.
    I'm sorry to have been unclear: it's probably not the first and it certainly will not be the last time :).
    What I meant was the idea of a 'big divide' (be it geographical or not) on the basis of one isoglos is out of date. In the history of historical linguistics, the perceived east-west division by the centum-satem isoglos, which prooved to be wrong, is still having its consequences, viz. the weight given to that c/s thing is still overrated.
    But all in all it would be the same as creating a dividing line between IE languages on the basis of one randomly chosen phenomenon at a randomly chosen point of time, let's say, the loss of aspiration of PIE *bh.

    Anyway, the idea of foreign names for ethnic groups is not restricted to 'Hrvat". In Hungary, the people call themselves "Magyar" (probably a compound of Finno-Ugric and Turkic) but many outside Hungary call them "Hungarian", "Hongrois", "Ungarisch", "Ungarese" etc. (a corruption of a probable Turkic compound). The Turkic name ("Hungarian" etc.) of the Magyars doesn't mean that these people were Turkic or were dominated by Turkic members in their tribes. (Magyars speak a Finno-Ugric language, but like many tribes in antiquity mixed with neighbouring peoples. Their biological origins show varying influences from Turko-Mongolian, Finno-Ugrian, Iranian and later Slavonic and Germanic people)
    Agreed.

    Groetjes,

    Frank
     

    mugibil

    Senior Member
    Bulgarian
    As a speaker of a Slavic language, who has dabbled in Indo-Iranian languages just a little, I have indeed encountered a few surprising Indo-Iranian cognates with Slavic that I haven't seen in other Indo-European languages (namely Germanic or Romance languages, which are the only groups I'm fairly familiar with). I have checked, these are indeed cognates following sound laws and not just coincidences. I will be giving Russian examples as representative of Slavic. The Indo-Iranian examples are from various languages, because I'm looking at some incomplete Swadesh lists; ideally, I would have used only Sanskrit and Avestan, but I don't have time to check such dictionaries.


    1. long: Sanskrit dīrghá - Russian долгий (dolgiy)
    2. to know: Sanskrit jɲā - Russian знать (znatj)
    3. earth: Persian zamin - Russian земя (zemja)
    4. to live: Kalderash Romani zhuvel - Russian жить, живу (zhitj, 1st pers. zhivu)
    5. dry: Hindi sūkhā - Russian сухой (sukhoj)
    6. fruit: Hindi phal - Russian плод (plod)
    7. fire: Sanskrit agni - Russian огонь (ogonj)
    [8. road: Bengali pôth - Russian путь (putj)] (haven't checked this one.)

    Some cognates are present in other languages, too, but they are more obvious in Indo-Iranian:

    1. woman/wife: Persian zan - Russian жена (zhena), as already mentioned.
    2. yellow: Persian zard - Russian жолтый (zholtyj)
    3. meat: Hindi mā̃s - Russian мясо (mjaso)
     

    mugibil

    Senior Member
    Bulgarian
    This is more like what it should like, I guess:

    1. long: OCS dlŭgŭ, Russian dolgij - Sanskrit dīrghá, Avestan darekha
    2. to know: OCS znati - Sanskrit jñā
    3. earth: OCS zemĭ - Avestan zam
    4. live: OCS živŭ - Sanskrit jīvá, Avestan jvô
    5. fire: OCS ognĭ - Sanskrit agniḥ
    6. fruit: OCS plodŭ - Sanskrit phalaṃ

    Some cognates are present in other languages, too, but they are more obvious in Indo-Iranian:

    1. woman/wife: OCS žena - Vedic Sanskrit jáni, Persian zan
    2. yellow: OCS žlŭtŭ, Russian žëltij - Persian zard
    3. meat: OCS męso - Sanskrit māṃsaṃ
     

    Awwal12

    Senior Member
    Russian
    Well, Slavic and Indo-Iranian languages have many similarities - no wonder, since they have the common origin. But could you, for instance, statistically prove (basing on random selection from the basic vocabulary) that Germanic languages are more far from Slavic ones?.. Since Germanic and Slavic languages also have many similar pairs. And, of course, it is only vocabulary.

    By the way, it is not very correct to compare OCS and Sanskrit - since the first is approximately twice younger, whereas Sanskrit is probably of the same age as the common Balto-Slavic linguistic community... Probably when Sanskrit was spoken 4000 years ago, even the First Germanic Sound Shift hasn't happened yet!
     

    mugibil

    Senior Member
    Bulgarian
    Well, Slavic and Indo-Iranian languages have many similarities - no wonder, since they have the common origin. But could you, for instance, statistically prove (basing on random selection from the basic vocabulary) that Germanic languages are more far from Slavic ones?..
    That's an interesting question. I suppose one could try to do that, if there were any practical interest in it. Measuring "similarity" is very tricky and I don't want to even start discussing the question how you actually define similarity - preserved similar vocabulary, known common origin, preserved similar sounds, known genealogical relatedness, or perhaps even grammatical similarity.

    Otherwise, one could do a couple of things. One count the preserved cognates with the same meaning by looking at Swadesh lists for example - I guess anyone of us could do it for fun, and I've no idea what the result would be and what value it would have. It's harder to measure the degree of sound similarity - intuitively, it's clear that OCS žena (жена) and Sanskrit jani (джани) are closer to each other than to Gothic qino (куино), but measuring that objectively based on sound features would be a lot of trouble (historically, of course, this is more or less the same centum-satem thingie that started this thread, and is taken as a evidence of genealogical or at least geographical closeness at some point in time). So yes, certainly I was expressing a subjective impression - perhaps, if I had learnt Germanic last, I would have been amazed by some striking Germanic-Slavic correspondences that I now take for granted.

    By the way, it is not very correct to compare OCS and Sanskrit - since the first is approximately twice younger, whereas Sanskrit is probably of the same age as the common Balto-Slavic linguistic community... Probably when Sanskrit was spoken 4000 years ago, even the First Germanic Sound Shift hasn't happened yet!
    I think it's a good idea to compare the earliest attested written languages from each group. It's also common practice to do so.
     
    Hi everyone,

    This is sort of related to the Farsi vs. European languages thread. I'd like to know what similarities exist between Slavic languages (Polish, Russian, Bulgarian, Serbian, etc) and Indo-Iranian ones (Kurdish, Farsi, Hindi, Panjabi, Bangla, etc) that DON'T exist between Indo-Iranian and western European languages such as English, French, Spanish, German, etc.

    Because I heard that within the Indo-European languages, one can distinguish two groups: CENTUM languages and SATEM languages (based on each group of language's way of saying "hundred"). Slavic languages (as well as Baltic ones) belong to the Satem group along with Indo-Iranian, but Germanic, Romance, and Celtic languages belong to the Centum group. So I was wondering if similarities exist in the two languages besides this phonological grouping.

    You can bring up grammatical similarities as well as vocabulary. Thanks!
    You say that Baltic languages belong to "satem" group? Indeed, Lithuanian "Shimtas" by my opinion is a transitional word between CENTUM and SATEM or it even belongs to the Centum group.

    Shi- <= Ce- (se), Ci- (si), Ci- (tshi)
    -mt- <= -nt
    Shimt <= Sent
    Shimt => semt* => sent => cent
    *Semt in lithuanian means "to draw, to scoop" (water).
    **Samtis = a scoop ("100" drops of liquid?)

    Also, what does CENTUM have to do with Germanic HUNDRED, HUNDERT?
     
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    Unfortunately I don't know any of Slavic languages. I have just a smattering of Russian and can read Cyrillic. In Russian, they say "spasiba" (thank you) and we have "sepâs" (spâs in Middle Persian) that might be cognate. Also we say "naft" and they say "neft" (oil). However, it might be a loanword from Persian.

    I'm trying to find basic vocabulary of mentioned Slavic languages in the Internet to extract words that seem cognate. From Polish I found these:

    Jestem - hastam (I am)
    sześć - shesh (six)

    If you know any vocabulary list please introduce me.

    ***
    Dear Docoleg, estekân (Tajiks say stakân) is a Russian loanword in Persian just like samâvar, doroshke (carriage), etc.
    In Lithuanian 6 = sheshi' and 5 = penki'.
     

    Christo Tamarin

    Senior Member
    Bulgarian
    I agree Tolovaj_Mataj. I haven't found direct similarities so far. For example, I found these

    Persian: quti; Albanian: kuti; Bulgarian: кутия (You have taken it from Greek: κουτί)
    Persian: miz; Bulgarian: маса (masa); Macedonian: маса; Albanian: menca (You have taken it from Latin: mensa)
    The first one doesn't ring any bells. Ok, it does if I think Serbian: kutija (a box).
    But the other one is interesting. It's miza of course (a table). I'll check it, when I come home. (No, we don't name a table stol like other Slavs. Stol is a chair in Slovene, but the same is in Swedish.)
    The word masa is common to Turkish/Slavo-Balkanic/Romano-Balkanic. It did not exist before AD1800. Probably, Ladino-speakers (Sephards) brought that word into Balkans about AD1830 to denote a new kind of furniture. The Slovene miza seems to be another borrowing from Romance (from Latin mensa again). I do not know if these words have any connection to the Persian miz.
     

    mugibil

    Senior Member
    Bulgarian
    It's cool to chat like this, but sometimes I think we're going too far; when something isn't clear, and it clearly isn't a forum invention, one should just read textbooks or research about it rather than argue. I'm sure there's a wiki article about it.

    You say that Baltic languages belong to "satem" group? Indeed, Lithuanian "Shimtas" by my opinion is a transitional word between CENTUM and SATEM or it even belongs to the Centum group.

    Shi- <= Ce- (se), Ci- (si), Ci- (tshi)
    -mt- <= -nt
    Shimt <= Sent
    Shimt => semt* => sent => cent
    *Semt in lithuanian means "to draw, to scoop" (water).
    **Samtis = a scoop ("100" drops of liquid?)
    The centum - satem thing is about stops versus fricatives or affricates (specifically sibilants). "Centum" is pronounced "kentum" in classical Latin, with a stop. Shimtas is a fricative (specifically a sibilant), so it's "satem". The main misunderstanding is that the distinction should make sense synchronically - it doesn't, it is only about history and origin - whether at a certain point far away in time the language belonged to the stop group or to the fricative group. So although almost all the modern Romance languages have come to have fricatives or affricates in cento/cent etc (chento), this is a later development; they belong to the centum group.

    Also, what does CENTUM have to do with Germanic HUNDRED, HUNDERT?
    First Germanic consonant shift. Stops become fricatives. k > x/h just like p > f (pied - foot) and t > th (tu - thou). But as I said, it's not supposed to be a synchronic division.
     
    Thanks for the explanation, it is appreciated. Yet I did not really get it, perhaps I need to become a linguist to understand it completely. "K" instead of a "C" is rather a Central-East European phenomenon, isn't it?
    That is German and Baltic etc. I know examples when "k" becomes a soft "ch" in Turkic languages for example. Perhaps a "K" sound could become a "S" as well. I know there are Romance languages and then there are Germanic languages and English is quite a mix of both, but Swedish or German is rather not.

    Since I am not a linguist, I "argue" it just as the 99% of the population would understand and take it. Since languages are created mostly by regular folks, and not linguists, we assume we can say our word as well, even when we may be wrong. I just point out how it looks to me personally. I don't claim to be correct, but I tried my luck. :)

    And since any sound can become anything else, then I also want to add that we can always make a pig out of a duck. Take a look:

    DUCK => DWUCK => DFUGH => PFUGG => PFIGG => PIG

    ( it's probably just a joke :) )

    Yet I believe that this is how some linguists "operate" :) No pun intended. I know, I am wrong, but I hope I'm forgiven.

    Oh, and another one - KENTETI (Lit. "to suffer") suffer from a blow of 100 rods, for instance. Perhaps I'm just improvising. ;-) I guess not... but I believe that a suffering is older than arithmetics and separating language groups by the way they pronounced "100" I think is a little bit inappropriate, but linguists know better, no argument there. Big Brother says - we listen and obey. ;-)
     

    clevermizo

    Senior Member
    English (USA), Spanish
    And since any sound can become anything else, then I also want to add that we can always make a pig out of a duck. Take a look:

    DUCK => DWUCK => DFUGH => PFUGG => PFIGG => PIG

    ( it's probably just a joke :) )
    And a humorous one, too!:D But in linguistic science, certain sound changes are more probable than others. It's a probability game. Suppose there are 9 stop consonants in English (D and P are both "Stop consonants" - meaning the airway is completely blocked and then opened again). So, the probability, giving every stop equal weight, of changing D>P is 1/9. Or if you don't want to consider phonological groups at all, there are about 24 phonemic consonants in English. So any change of X>Y has a probability of ~1/24, giving equal weight.

    However, in the case of P>F, [p] and [f] are part of a group of 5 sounds in English made by making physical contact with a lip or both of the lips (the others being [m], , [v]). So, giving everybody equal weight, the probability of P>F is 1/5.

    So, with my crude assumptions, there is approximately a 20% chance of P>F, but comparatively an 4-11% chance of D>P. Obviously D>P is still possible, but P>F is about 2-fold more possible:D. The probabilities in real life depend on more parameters, but an estimation can still be calculated.

    Rules of sound change are dictated by a couple things: 1) history: What sound changes have occurred in history? What can we infer by comparing languages and by older written records, 2) phonology and probability: What sound changes are likely? Given where they are produced in the mouth, etc. All sound changes are possible, but some are more probable than others for physical reasons.

    This is getting way off topic, but naturally there are other reasons for sound change. There could be cultural or social reasons that have nothing to do with the above. But typically, without a dictator mandating his or her subjects all speak a certain way, things proceed naturally (just as in biology) more or less according to probability.

    but I believe that a suffering is older than arithmetics and separating language groups by the way they pronounced "100" I think is a little bit inappropriate,
    And it has been very well established earlier in this thread that many linguists also agree with you.:D It seems this method of separating language groups is considered by some to be very old fashioned.
     
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    I like people like CLEVERMIZO. They are polite, kind, helpful and have a good sense of humour :) Thanks very much for explaining it in a human language ;-)

    The way I felt about this CENTUM-SATEM separation, it serves well to keep the Eastern part of Europe from Western parts of Europe both economically, culturally and politically. Today that has become more difficult. Yes, you may call it a conspiracy theory, but even linguists are sometimes paid to do things for the politics.

    Take a look at the map # 2 from the top:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Centum-Satem_isogloss

    The CENTUM-SATEM line 100% matches the EAST-WEST or CAPITALIST-SOCIALIST line that was dividing Europe until 1989-91.
     
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    sokol

    Senior Member
    Austrian (as opposed to Australian)
    The distinction between Kentum and Satem languages has of course no relation with politics, this is at best an urban myth (but not even that as I've never heard that one before, and urban myths are well-known for being ... well: known, for one, and believed by many :D).

    Kentum/Satem distinction is about a fundamental sound change - it's as simple as that; and a well-researched one too. It is not about two consonants but a consistent consonant phoneme shift (the languages which shifted consonants were the Satem-languages).

    Anyway, Slavic and Indo-Iranian languages are rather closely related to begin with (that is, within the Indo-European group in general); and also Indo-European linguists usually agree that there must have been a period in time when Slavs and Iranians lived as close neighbours, because some Iranian words have been loaned to Slavic languages. This however is only a loan relationship - not a "closer" genetic one (the closest language group related to Slavic of course is the Baltic group).

    Germanic languages, on the other hand, are quite distinct from Slavic languages - and those similarities you notice, Awwal12, are due to cultural influence which resulted in plenty of loans.
     

    Frank06

    Senior Member
    Nederlands / Dutch (Belgium)
    Take a look at the map # 2 from the top:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Centum-Satem_isogloss
    The CENTUM-SATEM line 100% matches the EAST-WEST or CAPITALIST-SOCIALIST line that was dividing Europe until 1989-91.
    You should also have looked at some dates given in the article: 1890/1897, that's way before the capitalist-socialist divide.

    Now, can we bring the topic back to Slavic and Indo-Iranian languages and leave the antiquated division centum-satem/west-east (which is about sounds, not about letters or words) for another thread? We can also discuss there in how far the divide centum/satem was under strain after the discovery and descriptions of Tocharian (early 20th century) and Hittite (1902/1917).

    Frank
     
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    Frank06

    Senior Member
    Nederlands / Dutch (Belgium)
    Hi,

    The topic, as the title of the thread indicates, is about Indo-Iranian and Slavic languages.

    Other topics can be discussed in other (slash new) threads.

    Thank you.

    Frank
    Moderator EHL
     

    koniecswiata

    Senior Member
    Am English
    Slavic and IndoIranian languages share some commonalities because they:

    1. Both are Indo European languages
    2. Probably were spoken in nearby areas at one point (Ukraine-Southern Russia more or less). This seems to be backed by words of IndoIranian origin in Ugric languages of the Volga region.

    On the other hand, the satem vs. centum "divide" looks at one isogloss. No more than that.

    Also, a Polish linguist, Witold Manczak did a study by counting etymologically related pairs and found that the BaltoSlavic languages had somewhat more in common (number of related words--discounting later borrowings) with Germanic than with IndoIranian. Overall, languages that were in closer geographical proximity tended to have more in common (shared vocabulary roots) than languages that were geographically farther apart. That doesn't seem like a big surprise.

    Many of the cognates given in previous posts struck me as largely having cognates also in Germanic, Italic, or other IndoEuropean languages. Slavic "zhena" is a cognate with English "queen" and Greek "gyne". Slavic "znat'" is a cognate with English "know" and Latin" gnos-" Sorry, if I didn't put the IndoIranian cognates here, but they were listed previously with the Slavic words, while the other IndoEuropean branches were left out.

    It's very difficult to prove particular relations between particular branches of IndoEuropean languages. It's just known that they are ALL related with each other.
     

    mugibil

    Senior Member
    Bulgarian
    Many of the cognates given in previous posts struck me as largely having cognates also in Germanic, Italic, or other IndoEuropean languages. Slavic "zhena" is a cognate with English "queen" and Greek "gyne". Slavic "znat'" is a cognate with English "know" and Latin" gnos-" Sorry, if I didn't put the IndoIranian cognates here, but they were listed previously with the Slavic words, while the other IndoEuropean branches were left out.
    Yes, I did mention that "Some cognates are present in other languages, too, but they are more obvious in Indo-Iranian", including zhena - gyne - qino/queen. But I was indeed wrong to leave out znati/jñā from the list of these cognates - it crossed my mind that it seems to correspond to English know, Greek gnoo- as in gnostic and Latin (g)n- as in nosco and cognitus, but I wasn't 100% sure. I guess I was never intuitively struck by the similarity between znati and gignooskoo/know, while I was struck by the similarity betwen znati and jñā-. I think most people would react in the same way (though I might be wrong about that).

    Anyway, as the isoglosses given in the wikipedia article ([http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Centum-Satem_isogloss#Alternative_views], scroll downwards) show, there don't seem to be many Slavic - Indo-Iranian inherited similarities beyond the centum-satem thing. Another issue is whether there are remarkable synchronic, typological similarities between the modern Balto-Slavic and Indo-Iranian (grammar, cases etc.). It would be interesting to compare them; I think they would be vastly different, but it would be a cool thing to do anyway.
     

    mugibil

    Senior Member
    Bulgarian
    So, with my crude assumptions, there is approximately a 20% chance of P>F, but comparatively an 4-11% chance of D>P. Obviously D>P is still possible, but P>F is about 2-fold more possible:D. The probabilities in real life depend on more parameters, but an estimation can still be calculated.
    Sound change is not arbitrary, it's not a matter of just any sound turning into any other possible sound. Sounds are not just an unstructured list, they share features with each other and form groups of similar sounds. /k/ doesn't just turn into /m/, they are too different. Usually it's one or two feature changes at a time, and these are often motivated by the context (surrounding) of the sound. /d/ > /p/ is virtually impossible as a direct change, it should undergo devoicing (/d/>/t/ or /b/>/p/) and labialization (/d/ > /b/ or /t/ > /p/ ) as two separate changes, and I would expect the latter to only occur in the vicinity of rounded vowels or labial consonants.

    Neonrider wrote:
    but I believe that a suffering is older than arithmetics and separating language groups by the way they pronounced "100" I think is a little bit inappropriate,

    And it has been very well established earlier in this thread that many linguists also agree with you.:D It seems this method of separating language groups is considered by some to be very old fashioned.
    That statement is very far from being accurate, to put it mildly. The point is that all instances of sound 1 turn into sound 2, and this includes all kinds of words, everyday or abstract, counting-related or feeling-related. The choice of the word for hundred in this case was completely arbitrary, one could have chosen among many other words. This method is not old-fashioned, it's the only one available, and no linguist would agree with such reasoning; what's old-fashioned is just the idea that the specific centum/satem difference corresponds to a major division into two IE full-fledged dialects with many other differences.
     
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    koniecswiata

    Senior Member
    Am English
    Mungu,

    That is true that people--well, those people who notice language-related things--would notice the znati/jña similarity before noticing znati/know/gnosco--precisely because of the k(g) to s(z) sound change that Slavic and Indo-Iranian both went through in relation to those sounds. I read somewhere that in Baltic that same sound change did not go through completely, and that some of the "k" were preserved. Of course, that doesn't make "know/gnosco" less related.

    As for typological matters, I read somewhere that modern Indian languages deriving from Sanskrit (Hindi, etc...) are largely analytical, or word issolating languages, not like Sanskrit which was highly inflected (synthetic). That is one of the big differences between them and Sanskrit. So, the situation was much like what happened to Latin when it gave rise to modern Romance Languages, or Modern English in relation to Anglo Saxon (also inflected, even with dual number). Besides, I think typological matters don't necessarily go hand in hand with languague family relatedness as we understand it, but may be more related to Sprachbund (areal features)--which might mean thinking of things in other terms for groupings--but that would be going off topic here.
     

    Orion7

    Member
    Latvian
    The already mentioned centum-satem isoglos is quite important. IIr and Balto-Slavic are often called the 'core satem languages'. It is believed that the satem developments aren't independent changes, given the fact that the languages affected were more or less contiguous.
    Baltic languages are not true satem languages, in German linguist's W.P. Schmid's opinion Baltic languages are kentum languages which are interleaved by some satem language (Scythian, Thracian). This opinion is based on many Baltic words which are kentum ones.
    Compare Latvian:
    akmens 'stone' / asmens 'blade' vs Greek. akmōn,akmē, Skr. ašmā, Ave. asman
    kuņa 'bitch' / suns 'dog' vs Greek kuōn, Skr. šva, šunas, Ave. spā, sunam
    kaukt 'to yell' / saukt 'to call'
    kvitēt 'to blossom' / svitēt 'to dawn'
    atkala 'ice-up ' / sals 'cold'
    kvēpt 'to blacken with smoke' / svēpt 'to fumigate' vs Greek kapnos 'smoke'
    kveldēt 'to burn' / sveldēt 'to burn'
    klausīt 'to listen' / slavēt 'to praise' vs Slav. slušati, Lat auscultāre.
    Lithuanian is more satemized than Latvian as it observes r.u.k.i. law whereas Latvian doesn't (tautkas vs tautisks 'national'). As also Lithuanian is closer to Sanskrit whereas Latvian is closer to Avestan and Old Persian (šuo & šva, ašmuo & ašmā vs suns & sunas, asmens & asman, zeme & zamī) due to persistent contacts with Iranian tribe Scythians (cf. Latvian place-names Vārkava, Barkava, Var(a)kļāni, Scythian varkas 'wolf'). Basing on my personal research I have made a conclusion that Latvian (Latgallian) language originally was a language of Iranian group (closely related to Scythian) which was later heavily lithuanized, this fact is attested in multiple Finnish loanwords from North-East Baltic languages (e.g. Old Latgallian), like sata, vandā, deksan, heinä, heimo, leipä, sisar, paimen, taivas, silta, very similar to Iranian ones.
     
    Baltic languages are not true satem languages, in German linguist's W.P. Schmid's opinion Baltic languages are kentum languages which are interleaved by some satem language (Scythian, Thracian). This opinion is based on many Baltic words which are kentum ones.
    Compare Latvian:
    akmens 'stone' / asmens 'blade' vs Greek. akmōn,akmē, Skr. ašmā, Ave. asman
    kuņa 'bitch' / suns 'dog' vs Greek kuōn, Skr. šva, šunas, Ave. spā, sunam
    kaukt 'to yell' / saukt 'to call'
    kvitēt 'to blossom' / svitēt 'to dawn'
    atkala 'ice-up ' / sals 'cold'
    kvēpt 'to blacken with smoke' / svēpt 'to fumigate' vs Greek kapnos 'smoke'
    kveldēt 'to burn' / sveldēt 'to burn'
    klausīt 'to listen' / slavēt 'to praise' vs Slav. slušati, Lat auscultāre.
    Lithuanian is more satemized than Latvian as it observes r.u.k.i. law whereas Latvian doesn't (tautkas vs tautisks 'national'). As also Lithuanian is closer to Sanskrit whereas Latvian is closer to Avestan and Old Persian (šuo & šva, ašmuo & ašmā vs suns & sunas, asmens & asman, zeme & zamī) due to persistent contacts with Iranian tribe Scythians (cf. Latvian place-names Vārkava, Barkava, Var(a)kļāni, Scythian varkas 'wolf'). Basing on my personal research I have made a conclusion that Latvian (Latgallian) language originally was a language of Iranian group (closely related to Scythian) which was later heavily lithuanized, this fact is attested in multiple Finnish loanwords from North-East Baltic languages (e.g. Old Latgallian), like sata, vandā, deksan, heinä, heimo, leipä, sisar, paimen, taivas, silta, very similar to Iranian ones.
    In relation to Sanskrit (Indo-related topic), Lithuanian for a "dog" is either šuo (dog) or šuva (dog) or šuniukas (doggy) or šunys (dogs).
     

    koniecswiata

    Senior Member
    Am English
    Orion7, that is a good point about Baltic Languages not being "Core Satem". First, the distinction between Centum and Satem languages focuses on only one sound change, which might make the supposed importance of this distinction exaggerated.
    What you point to is that often sound changes in languages are not 100% complete, and there exist stages. Even Western Slavic say "kwiat" (Polish) for flower, as opposed to East Slavic "tsviet" (Russian), alson stone in Polish is "kamien" with k.
     
    How did Polish get "wakacje" and how Russian got "kanikuly"? I also have no idea how Lithuanian got "atostogos". All are words for "vacation". If someone could explain that would be great.
     

    Maroseika

    Moderator
    Russian
    Russian каникулы < Polish kanikuɫa < Latin саnīсulа (doggie). Latin diēs canīculāres (dog days) < old name of Sirius < Greek κύων - dog [of Orion, the hunter], because those were the most hot days of the year, when nobody worked. Cf. κυνόκαυμα - dog heat.
    Sirius (Dog-star) stayed the most high that time and Greeks supposed it to be the source of the summer heat.
    Other calques of the Greek expression:
    English - dogdays
    German - Hundstagen
    French - jours caniculaires
    Russian - собачья жара (dog heat).

    I don't know about Polish wakacje, but Russian вакация is from seminarian Latin.
     

    Orion7

    Member
    Latvian
    How did Polish get "wakacje" and how Russian got "kanikuly"? I also have no idea how Lithuanian got "atostogos". All are words for "vacation". If someone could explain that would be great.
    Lithuanian atostogos imho from atostodos (<*atastādās), which means the same as Russian otpusk 'vacation' (liter. 'release, dismissal'), cf. Russian otpuskat' = Latvian atstādināt,atlaist 'to release, to dismiss [from job]'.
     

    Ben Jamin

    Senior Member
    Polish
    Except for the second word there, bog - Many consider Slavic bog to be an Iranian borrowing.
    That's another tale, we discussed the word spasibo. But yes, there is almost a consensus between the Slavicists now that bog and related words came from Iranian. Remember however that the original meaning in Slavic was good, rich, as in bogaty and the opposite ubogi.
     

    Gita-Etymology

    Member
    English - US
    Aha, so semantically bogъ was then originally an adjective?

    Just out of curiosity, why can't be it from Indo-European? (ie. bogъ = sansk. bhagaḥ)? Would we have to expect *bagъ due to Winter's Law?

    As an aside, Poland's Bańkowski, I think, claimed bogъ = bhogʷ-o-s (from bhegʷ 'run') = Gr. phobos "fear". Probable?
     
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    mercury62

    New Member
    farsi
    some Slavic similarities with Persian (Iranian) words :

    SIX , persian : shish or shesh , latvian : seši (seshi) , lithuanian : šeši (sheshi) , polish : sześć (shesc) , russian : sheyst , slovak : šesť (shest)
    SIXTY , persian : shast , russian : sheyst dee syaat , slovak : šesťdesiat (shestdesiat) , sanskrit : sasta
    EARTH , persian : zamin or zemin , avestan persian : zem , latvian : zeme , polish : ziemia , czech : země ,russian : zimliah
    WOMAN , persian : zan , croatian : žena , czech : žena , slovak : žena , kurdish : jin
    ANT , persian : moor , russian : moo raa vey , bosnian : mrav
    TABLE , persian : miz , slovenian : miza , bulgarian : masa
    BRANCH (of a tree) , persian : shakheh , sanskrit : shaakha , lithuanian : šaka
    FROM , persian : az or ze , croatian : iz , polish : z , slovenian : iz
    AM or I AM , persian : hastam , polish : yestem , czech : ysem
    MY , old persian : manā .... in persian "man" means "i" .... lithuanian : mano , latvian : mans
    WE , persian : ma , kurdish : me , slovenian : me , latvian : mēs , lithuanian : mes , croatian : mi , russian : mee
    WINTER , persian : zemestan , avestan : zimo , polish : zima , latvian : ziemas , lithuanian : žiema, croatian : zima , czech : zimni , russian : zeemaa
    I AM NOT , persian : nistam , serbian : nisam , slovenian : nisem , slovak : neysem , polish : nie yestem
    YOU ARE NOT (sing.) , persian : nisti , serbian : nisi , slovenian : niste , slovak : nieste , polish : nie yesteś
    AXE , persian : tabar , russian : topór
    WHERE , persian : koja , isfahani persian : kooja , russian : kooda
    FROM WHERE , persian : az koja or az kooja , russian : "at kooda"
     
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    Frank06

    Senior Member
    Nederlands / Dutch (Belgium)
    some Slavic similarities with Persian (Iranian) words : SIX , persian : shish or shesh , latvian : seši (seshi) , lithuanian : šeši (sheshi) , polish : sześć (shesc) , russian : sheyst , slovak : šesť (shest)
    1. neither Latvian nor Lithuanian are Slavic languages.
    2. It would be far more interesting to give examples which aren't found in the other IE languages (English six, Dutch zes, etc.). I mean, since they are all IE languages, it's quite obvious they have words in common.
    The point of this thread is to give examples (and explanations, please don't forget explanations) which more or less sets apart the Slavic/IIR languages in the IE language family.

    Frank
     

    Angelo di fuoco

    Senior Member
    Russian & German (GER) bilingual
    some Slavic similarities with Persian (Iranian) words :

    SIX , persian : shish or shesh , latvian : seši (seshi) , lithuanian : šeši (sheshi) , polish : sześć (shesc) , russian : sheyst , slovak : šesť (shest)
    SIXTY , persian : shast , russian : sheyst dee syaat , slovak : šesťdesiat (shestdesiat) , sanskrit : sasta
    EARTH , persian : zamin or zemin , avestan persian : zem , latvian : zeme , polish : ziemia , czech : země ,russian : zimliah
    WOMAN , persian : zan , croatian : žena , czech : žena , slovak : žena , kurdish : jin
    ANT , persian : moor , russian : moo raa vey , bosnian : mrav
    TABLE , persian : miz , slovenian : miza , bulgarian : masa
    BRANCH (of a tree) , persian : shakheh , sanskrit : shaakha , lithuanian : šaka
    FROM , persian : az or ze , croatian : iz , polish : z , slovenian : iz
    AM or I AM , persian : hastam , polish : yestem , czech : ysem
    MY , old persian : manā .... in persian "man" means "i" .... lithuanian : mano , latvian : mans
    WE , persian : ma , kurdish : me , slovenian : me , latvian : mēs , lithuanian : mes , croatian : mi , russian : mee
    WINTER , persian : zemestan , avestan : zimo , polish : zima , latvian : ziemas , lithuanian : žiema, croatian : zima , czech : zimni , russian : zeemaa
    I AM NOT , persian : nistam , serbian : nisam , slovenian : nisem , slovak : neysem , polish : nie yestem
    YOU ARE NOT (sing.) , persian : nisti , serbian : nisi , slovenian : niste , slovak : nieste , polish : nie yesteś
    AXE , persian : tabar , russian : topór
    WHERE , persian : koja , isfahani persian : kooja , russian : kooda
    FROM WHERE , persian : az koja or az kooja , russian : "at kooda"
    "куда" & "откуда" are only for directions, not for stable positions.
    "mee" = "ми", but "mi" is the name of a note in music, not of the pronoun "мы".
    "шейсть" - no offence, but you should brush up your Russian pronunciation first before writing this.
     

    Maroseika

    Moderator
    Russian
    AXE , persian : tabar , russian : topór
    Russian топор and other Slavic cognats were just loaned from the Persian and initially meant a weapon as opposed to секира - axe as a tool (acc. to O. Trubachev). Later these 2 words (топор and секира) meanings changed to the "opposite"
     

    SSlava

    New Member
    Russian
    I am Russian) compiled a list of similar meaning and sound of words with Sanskrit

    bhajati{ bhaj } - brat'
    dadaati { daa } - dat'
    tanoti { tan } - tyanut'
    mayate - menyat'
    manas - mnit'
    rujati { ruj } - rushit'
    rodana, roditi{ rud } - rydat'
    lih - lizat'
    vartate { vRt } - vertet'
    siidati { sad } - sidet', sadit'sya
    peya - pit'
    buddha,prabuddhaH - Budit', probudit'
    plavate - plavat'
    sthala - vstat'
    preSayati - prosit'
    smayate { smi } - smeyat'sya
    datta - dat'
    eti { i } - idti
    eSati { iS } - iskat'
    { tras } - tryastis'
    patana, patati { pat } - padat'
    yabana - ebat'
    druta,dravati - drapat'
    upanyasyati - ob''yasnyat'
    laalayati { lal } - leleyat'
    hima - zima
    agni - ogon'(ogni)
    kada - kogda
    sada - vsegda
    dvi - dva
    dvar - dver'
    dam - dom
    nabha,nabhas - nebo, nebesa
    giri - gora
    bharati - hranit'
    naTana - tancy
    mahan - mahina
    kaNa - kanut'
    stambha - stolb
    matya - motyga
    nava - novyi
    vedana - vedat'
    tvam - vam
    naasaa - nos
    nakta - noch'
    snuSaa - snoha
    pratyeti - prinyat'
    na kadaapi - nikogda
    miira - more
    gala - gorlo
    garjana - gremet'
    bhraatR - brat
    kiila -kol
    tapas - teplota
    aakheTa - ohota
    vaata - veter
    sattva - sut'
    mana - mnenie
    guJjati - gul
    rajju - rozga
    sabhaa - sobranie
    phala -plod
    kartayati { kart } - kornat'
    tap - topit'
    tamas - t'ma
    anya - inoi
    vac - vyakat'
    sapta - sem'
    svapati - spat'
    ghraati { ghraa } - hrapet'
    priya - priyatnyi
    dRka - dyrka
    kaasate { kaas } - kashlyat'
    daana,daaya - dar
    tittiraa - teterev
    zaza - zaya
    rava - rev
    phena - pena
    maatraa - mera
    raya - potok reki (reka)
    dina - den'
    kim - kakoi
    vivara - vina
    suutra- struna
    madhu - med
    droNii - vedro
    nakha - nogti
    nagna - nagoi
    parda,pardate { pard } - perdet'
    maasa - myaso
    madhye - mezhdu
    { ni } - niz
    laSati { laS } - laskat'
    zaalaa - zal
    etat - yеtot
    garva - gordost'
    patha - put'
    mRtyu - umeret'
    dairghya - dolgota
    bhuurja - bereza
    yuvan, yauvana - yunyi, yunosha
    gala - gorlo
    pratisedhati - presekat'
    matar - mat'
    sva - svoi
    caturdaza - chetyrnadcat'
    tadaa - togda
    tanu - tonkii
    muuDha - mudak
    prabhu - pravitel'
    gurutaa - girya
    lumpati { lup } - lupit'
    na - net
    manth - mandrazh
    vaara - vorota
    puraa,aadi - pervyi (odin?)
    tad - tak
    vraNa - rana
    saMtaana - sem'jа
    bhuu - budet
    kokila - kukushka
    kaaSTha - koster
    paapaatman - popa
    katara – kotoryi
    bhruu - brov'
    oSTha - usta
    raTat - orat'
    graavaa - granit
    kiila - klin
    pratyaniika - protivnyi
    paantha, pathika - putnik
    vaayu,vaata,vyoman - vozduh
    svaatanya - svoboda
    muuSaka - myshka
    prasaada - poshada
    dhuuma - dym
    sarvara - sobol'
    tuuda - tutovnik
    nazati - naiti
    But the list is not complete yet
     
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    Ben Jamin

    Senior Member
    Polish
    I am Russian) compiled a list of similar meaning and sound of words with Sanskrit


    But the list is not complete yet
    Could you supply more information about the following words (PIE root, transtitional forms, etc) as the connection is not so easy to see for them?
    Could you also give a translation of both cognates? Few people know Sanskrit, and many of the Russian words are also less known.

    bhajati{ bhaj } - brat'
    mayate - menyat'
    manas - mnit'
    rujati { ruj } - rushit'
    rodana, roditi{ rud } - rydat'
    eti { i } - idti
    eSati { iS } - iskat'
    upanyasyati - ob''yasnyat'
    sada - vsegda
    bharati - hranit'
    naTana - tancy
    mahan - mahina
    kaNa - kanut'
    pratyeti - prinyat'
    kiila -kol
    vaata - veter
    guJjati - gul
    sabhaa - sobranie
    tamas - t'ma
    dRka - dyrka
    zaza - zaya
    rava - rev
    phena - pena
    vivara - vina
    zaalaa - zal
    etat - yеtot
    garva - gordost'
    yuvan, yauvana - yunyi, yunosha
    pratisedhati - presekat'
    muuDha - mudak
    prabhu - pravitel'
    gurutaa - girya
    manth - mandrazh
    vaara - vorota
    puraa,aadi - pervyi (odin?)
    tad - tak
    vraNa - rana
    saMtaana - sem'jа
    paapaatman - popa
    graavaa - granit
    kiila - klin
    pratyaniika - protivnyi
    paantha, pathika - putnik
    vaayu,vaata,vyoman - vozduh
    prasaada - poshada
    sarvara - sobol'
    tuuda - tutovnik
    nazati – naiti
     

    SSlava

    New Member
    Russian
    manas - mnit' Sanskrit:imagination Rus:imagine
    Gk. μένος (menos), Lat. mēns, Skr. मनस् (manas), Av. manah, Eng. gemynd/mind, Goth. muns, ON minni; man, Gm. minna/Minne, Lith. mintis, Ltv. minēt, Old Prussian mēntimai, OCS mineti, Russ. мнить (mnit'), Alb. mund, Pers. mainyāhay/, Toch. mnu/mañu, Ir. do-moiniur/; dermet/dearmad, Welsh cof, Arm. իմանամ (imanam)
    eti - idti (In Russian it can be said: iti) Sanskrit:go Rus:go

    tamas - t'ma Sanskrit:dark Rus:dark
    Skr. तमस् (támas), Lith. tamsa; tamsus, Ltv. timt, Lat. tenebrae; temere, Av. təmah, OCS tĭmĭnŭ, Russ.тьма(t'ma) тёмный (tjomnyj), Ir. temel/teimheal, Gm. demar/Dämmerung; dinstar/, Polish ciemny, Alb. terr, Av. temah, Pers. tār, Toch. /tamāsse, Illyr. Tomaros
    rava - rev Sanskrit:roar Rus:roar
    zaza - zaya(zayac) Sanskrit:hare Rus:hare
    Polish: zając Czech: zajíc Macedonian:зајак

    kaNa - kanut' Sankrit:
    drop Rus:drop
    Latin:cado Bulgarian:капка Byelorussian:кануть
    zaalaa - zal Sanskrit:hall Rus:hall
    Latvian:zāle Lithuanian:salė
    vaata(vāta) - veter Sanskrit:wind Rus:wind
    Latvian:vējš Lithuanian:vėjas Latin:ventus
    vraNa - rana(царапина) Sanskrit:Scratch Rus:Scratch, wound

    kraNa - rana Sanskrit:wound Rus:wound

    mahan - mahina Sanskrit:great Rus:great

    dRka - dyrka Sanskrit:hole Rus:hole
     
    Last edited:

    djmc

    Senior Member
    English - United Kingdom
    I don't think that a list of similar words in different languages gives much of any idea of the affiliations of the languages themselves. However the reason why the theory of the affiliation of indoeuropean was evolved was because Jones (1794) and Bopp (1816) realised the closeness of Sanscrit to both Latin and Greek both in terms of both vocabulary and also in terms of grammar. The classification of languages within the IE category was done with a historical intent. In general it was thought to be pointless to use a later development if an earlier one is available. Thus if one is making a comparison of original roots there is little point in comparing say French and Hindi since Latin and Sanscrit are available. Some languages are far more conservative both in terms of vocabulary and grammar than others, and some do not have any ancient written form. The theory about the satem - centum divide was introduced to try to introduce some sort of classification. This is not the only sound shift, there was a mapping of the sound shifts from IE to the Germanic group known as Grimm's law.

    I think now the 19th century theories are to some extent démodé, and other languages have been thrown into consideration such as Hittite and Tocharian. However while Latin is and was thought to be very much of the western group and Sanscrit of the eastern group the similarities are more remarkable than the diferences.
     

    SSlava

    New Member
    Russian
    sabhaa - sobranie Sanskrit:meeting Rus:meeting

    yuvan, yauvana - yunyi, yunosha Sanskrit:young Rus:young
    OCS junu, Russ. юный (junyj), Skr. युवन् (yuvan), Gaul. Jovincillus, Lith. jaunas, Ltv. jauns, Eng. geong/young, Av. yavan, Lat. juvĕnis, Umbrian iuengar , Gm. jung/jung, ON ungr, Goth. juggs, Welsh ieuanc, Ir. óc/óg, Pers. javān
    vaara - vorota Sanskrit:gate Rus:gate
    Latvian:vārti Lithuanian:vartai
    phena - pena Sanskrit:foam Rus:foam
    Latvian: putas Serbian: пена(pena) Czech: pěna
    sada - vsegda Sanskrit:always Rus:always
    Lithuanian:visada
    na kadaapi - nikogda Sanskrit: never Rus: never
    Lithuanian: niekada Latvian: nekad

    etat - yеtot(It is said as yеtat) Sanskrit:this Rus:this
    Czech:tento
    katara – kotoryi(It is said as katoryi) Sanskrit:which of the two? Rus:which
    Lithuanian: kuris Latvian: kas
    tad - tak Sanskrit: so Rus: so
    Latvian: tā Lithuanian: taip Belarus:так
    tvam - vam Sanskrit: you Rus: you
    Ukrainian:вам
    kim - kakoi Rus: which? Sanskrit: which?
    Lithuanian: kas Latvian: kas
    dadaati { daa } - dat' Sanskrit:give Rus:give
    Russ. дать (dat'), Arm. տալ (tal), Lith. duoti, Ltv. dot; deva, Skr. ददाति (dádāti), Av. dadāiti, Osset. дæттын (dættyn), Alb. dhashë, Gk. δίδωμι (didōmi), Kashmiri dẏyūn, Polish dać, Phryg. dadón, Old Prussian dātwei, Lat. dō, Oscan dede, Umbrian dadad, Ir. dán/, Welsh dawn, Hitt. dā, Lyc. da, Luw. da-, Lyd. da-, Gaul. doenti, OCS дати (dati), Pers. ���������� (dadātuv) / دادَن (dādan)
    datta - dat' Sanskrit:give Rus:give

    bhajati{ bhaj } - brat' Sanskrit: take Rus: take
    Ukrainian:брати, Belarus:браць
    patana, patati { pat } - padat' Sanskrit:fall Rus:fall
    Lithuanian: patekti Bulgarian:падане
    mayate - menyat' Sanskrit:change Rus:change
    Lat. mūnus, Eng. gemǣne/mean, Gm. gimeini/gemein, Goth. gamains, Skr. मयते (mayate); मेनि (meni), OCS mĕna, Russ. менять (menjat'), Lith. mainyti, Ltv. mains, Ir. móin/, Welsh mwyn, Polish zmiana, Av. maēni, Hitt. immiya-
    yabana - ebat' Sanskrit:fuck Rus:fuck
    Gm. eiba/—, Skr. यभति (yabhati), Russ. ебать (jebat'), Illyr. Oibalos, Gk. οἴφω (oiphō)/, Polish jebać
    parda,pardate { pard } - perdet' Sanskrit:Fart Rus:Fart
    Russ. пердеть (perdet'), Skr. पर्दते (párdate), Lith. persti, Ltv. pirst, Phryg. perdomai, Alb. pjerth; pordhë, Eng. feortan/fart, Gm. ferzan/furzen, ON freta, Gk. πέρδομαι (perdomai), Av. pərəðaiti, Welsh rhech
    sthala - vstat' Sanskrit:rise Rus:rise
    Ukrainian:всати(vstati)
    bharati - hranit' Sanskrit:keep Rus:keep
    upanyasyati - ob''yasnyat'(объяснять) Sanskrit:explain Rus:explain
    Lithuanian: paaiškinti
    nazati – naiti Sanskrit:find Rus:find
    Bulgarian:намирам Ukrainian:знайти
    tapati { tap } - topit'(tapit') Sanskrit:warm up Rus:warm up, burn
    Ukrainian:топити
    rodana, roditi{ rud } - rydat' Sanskrit:cry Rus:cry, sob
    Lithuanian: raudojimas
    pratisedhati{ prati- sidh } - presekat' Sanskrit:stop Rus:stop

    eSati { iS } - iskat' Sanskrit:search Rus:search
    Lithuanian: paieška
    peya - pit' Sanskrit: drink Rus: drink
    Russ. пить (pit'), Skr. पिबति (píbati), Gk. πίνω (pinō), Alb. pi, Ir. ibim/ibh, Welsh yfed, Lith. puota, Old Prussian poieiti, Hitt. pas, Thrac. pinon, Arm. ըմպել (ëmpel), Lat. bibere, Umbrian puni, OCS пити (piti)
    { tras } - tryastis' Sanskrit: shiver Rus: shiver
    Macedonian: тресете Belarus: трэсці
    mathati { manth } - mandrazh Sanskrit: agitate Rus:agitate, shiver

    druta,dravati - drapat' Sanskrit: to run Rus: to run, skedaddle
    Belarus: драпать, Ukrainian: драпати
    laalayati { lal } - leleyat' Sanskrit: cherish Rus: cherish
    Latvian: lolot
    svapati - spat' Sanskrit:sleep Rus: sleep
    Ukrainian: спати Byelorussian: спаць
    buddha,prabuddhaH,prabodhayati - Budit', probudit' Sanskrit:Awaken Rus:Awaken

    Lith. budinti, Ltv. budīt, Old Prussian budē, Av. buiðyeiti, Ir. buide/buidhe, Welsh bodd, ON bjóða; boð, Gk. πυνθάνομαι (punthanomai), Eng. bēodan/bid; bodian/bode, Kamviri bidi, Russ. будить (budit'), Polish budzić, OCS блюсти (bljusti), Gm. biotan/bieten; gibot/Gebot, Goth. ������������������ (anabiudan), Pers. /bēdār-šudan

    tanoti { tan } - tyanut' Sanskrit: stretch [ cord ] Rus:stretch
    Ukrainian:тягнути Lithuanian: traukti
    aakheTa - ohota Sanskrit: hunting Rus:hunting

    naTana - tanус Sanskrit: dance Rus: dance
    Ukrainian:танець
    vac - vyakat' Sanskrit: talk Rus: talk, blather
    Ukrainian: дзявкали
    vedana - vedat' Sanskrit:knowledge Rus:know
    Gm. wizzan/wissen, Arm. գէտ (gēt) Kashmiri vūčhūn, Polish widzieć; wiedzieć, ON vita, Goth. weitan, OIr. fis; fiuss; find/fionn, Gaul. Vindomagus, Welsh gwedd; gwŷs; gwyn, Lith. vaidintis, OPruss. widdai, OCS вѣдѣти (vědět)
    plavate { plu } - plavat' Sanskrit: swim Rus: swim
    Lithuanian: plaukti Serbian: пливати Ukrainian: плавати
    kaasate { kaas } - kashlyat' Sanskrit: cough Rus: cough
    Lithuanian: kosulys Latvian: klepus Ukrainian: кашляти
    ghraati { ghraa } - hrapet' Sanskrit:sniff Rus: sniff

    gurutaa - girya Sanskrit:weight Rus:weight
    Pers: girān - weight
    prasaada - poshada Sanskrit:mercy Rus:mercy

    muuDha - mudak Sanskrit:ignorant, stupid, idiotic Rus:ignorant, stupid, idiotic, asshole (Negative value)

    puraa,aadi - pervyi (odin?) Sanskrit:first Rus:first, one
    Alb. parë, Av. parvō, Lith. pirmas, Ltv. pirmais, Gm. furist/Fürst; fruo/früh, Eng. fyrst/first, Gk. πρότερος (proteros), Hitt. para, Ir. rem/roimh, Kamviri pürük, Lyc. pri, OCS pĭrvŭ, Oscan perum, ON fyrstr, Old Prussian pariy, Osset. фыццаг (fyccag, "first"); фараст (farast, "nine"), Russ. первый (pervyj), Skr. pūrvā; प्रथम (prathamá), Toch. parwät/parwe, Lat. primus, Umbrian pert, Welsh rwyf, OIr. arsaid
    graavaa - granit Sanskrit:granite Rus:granite (probably borrowing words))


    saMtaana - sem'jа Sanskrit: family Rus:family
    Lithuanian: šeimos latin: prosapia


    guJjati { guJj } -gul Sanskrit: hum Rus: hum
    Ukrainian: гул
    garva - gordost' Sanskrit: pride Rus: pride
    Ukrainian: гордість Bulgarian: гордост
    anya - inoi Sanskrit: other Rus: other
    Latin: alius, aliud, alia Polish: inny Ukrainian: інший
    nagna - nagoi Sanskrit:nude Rus: nude
    Eng. nacod/naked, Goth. naqaþs, Skr. नग्न (nagna), Hitt. nekumant, Gk. γυμνός (gumnos), Lat. nūdus, Lith. nuogas, Ltv. nogs, Ir. nocht/, Gm. nackot/nackt, Polish nagi, ON nakinn, Av. maġna, Welsh noeth, OCS nagŭ, Russ. нагой (nagoj), Kashmiri naṅgay
    vivara - vina Sanskrit:fault Rus: fault
    Latin: vitium Ukrainian: вина
     
    Last edited:

    SSlava

    New Member
    Russian
    Could you supply more information about the following words (PIE root, transtitional forms, etc) as the connection is not so easy to see for them?
    Could you also give a translation of both cognates? Few people know Sanskrit, and many of the Russian words are also less known.
    :) Okay, I'm tired already
    then continue
     

    sokol

    Senior Member
    Austrian (as opposed to Australian)
    Hello guys,

    I'm impressed by your enthusiasm - but I still would like to point out that a forum thread is not a very good means of making a list of words for comparative reasons: it is awfully strenuous trying to make sense of that when you've got to skip backwards and forwards to follow a (any) thread.

    So I'm asking you to please limit lists to "essentials". (The thread's already cluttered with pure list posts in a way which makes it difficult to follow any discussion on the similarities between those two branches of IE languages.)

    The same goes for discussions about individual word pairs: it would be much better to open threads of their own for them.
    Please note, this is for the convenience of all users of this forum - if we accumulate even more lists then arguments and discussion threads will all but disappear.

    Thanks for your understanding!
    Cheers
    sokol
    Moderator EHL
     

    SSlava

    New Member
    Russian
    http://www.vedamsbooks.com/no55377.htm

    It is interesting to note that in spite of disparity of time and space both Sanskrit and Russian have such a striking similarity in the basic Indo-European vocabulary that one is but bound to believe that they have descended from some common source.
    Whether and there is this book in an electronic variant? It is interesting to read
     

    john welch

    Senior Member
    English-Australian creole
    To make it worse, "centum" is pronounced /sentum/. It seems that Scythians-Kambojas influenced both Slavic and Latin, and Indo-Persian Scythians ruled "Cambodia" (Kamboja). "Kamal" perfect man, is "kamil" in Indonesia and in Kamilaroi (Aboriginal Australia). But Skt. "camara" is "chamara" (shamara) royal yak-tail, in Thailand.
     
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