Pronunciation: the alphabet

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  • Doraemon-

    Senior Member
    "Spanish - Spain" "Catalan - Valencia"
    There's a small mistake in the Valencian pronounciation. There are three variants accepted, not two, for:
    f: ef /'ef/, efe /'efe/ and efa /'efa/
    l: el /'el/, ele /'ele/ and ela /'ela/
    m: em /'em/, eme /'eme/ and ema /'ema/
    n: en /'en/, ene /'ene/ and ema /'ema/
    r: er /'er/, erre /'ere/ and erra /'era/
    s: es /'es/, ese /'ese/ and esa /'esa/
    Personally I always use the one ending in -a.

    Also in the catalan pronounciation, please notice that it's written only in the eastern pronounciation, not in the western one, which has no vowel reduction nor neutral e (schwa) (/ˈɛra/, /ˈɛma/, /ˈzeta/, /ˈi ˈɡɾeɡa/...)
     

    Doraemon-

    Senior Member
    "Spanish - Spain" "Catalan - Valencia"
    Wiktionary transcribes their occidental Catalan pronunciations as /ˈera/, /ˈema/. Which are correct?
    Yours: /ˈera/, /ˈema/, as I had put in the Valencian pronounciations. I just changed the last /ə/ to /a/ from the table and I forgot to change this.
     

    tenienteramires

    Senior Member
    Catalan - Occidental
    There's a small mistake in the Valencian pronounciation. There are three variants accepted, not two, for:
    f: ef /'ef/, efe /'efe/ and efa /'efa/
    l: el /'el/, ele /'ele/ and ela /'ela/
    m: em /'em/, eme /'eme/ and ema /'ema/
    n: en /'en/, ene /'ene/ and ema /'ema/
    r: er /'er/, erre /'ere/ and erra /'era/
    s: es /'es/, ese /'ese/ and esa /'esa/
    Personally I always use the one ending in -a.

    Also in the catalan pronounciation, please notice that it's written only in the eastern pronounciation, not in the western one, which has no vowel reduction nor neutral e (schwa) (/ˈɛra/, /ˈɛma/, /ˈzeta/, /ˈi ˈɡɾeɡa/...)
    In Eastern Catalan, the names 'el', 'ele' and 'ela' are pronounced [ˈeɫ], [ˈe.ɫe] and [ˈe.ɫa], with a velarised L [ɫ], as in all catalan dialects.

    Actually yes, the name of the letters F, L, M, N, R and S can be the traditional (and oldest) one: ef, el, em, en, er, es (not used so much nowadays), the Spanish one: efe, ele, eme, ene, erre esse (the most used one in spoken Western Catalan) and the catalanised forms of Spanish names: efa, ela, ema, ena, erra, essa (the most used one in spoken Eastern Catalan and the only one accepted by the IEC). I personally use the classical names (ef, el, em, en, er, es), which I think must be restored in spoken Catalan.
     

    tenienteramires

    Senior Member
    Catalan - Occidental
    Thanks for everyone's answer!
    Are e and o also pronounced /ɛ/ and /ɔ/, instead of /e/ and /o/, in occidental Catalan? Diccionari normatiu valencià transcribes them /e/ and /o/.
    Diccionari normatiu valencià shows the standard recommended Valencian pronunciation, it can vary from region to region, but all vowels that are shown there are correct for standard pronunciation of ALL western (occidental) Catalan dialects.

    The pronunciation given in the Diccionari normatiu valencià is the most general pronunciation in valencian dialects and the one considered most standard here in the Valencian Country, but you can use it as well for all the other Western Catalan varieties. There are things that can vary between western dialects, like final -r, that is not pronounced everywhere (in my Tortosí dialect I don't pronounce it) or final clusters (nasal + plosive), but fortunately Western Catalan is very unified.
     

    tenienteramires

    Senior Member
    Catalan - Occidental
    The digraph NY is called "ena i grega" (or "ene i grega" and "en i grega"), not "enya" (which is, actually, the name for the letter Ñ, not used in Catalan)

    Those are the name of the letters:

    A: a
    B: be (or "be alta")
    C: ce
    D: de
    E: e
    F: efa/efe/ef
    G: ge
    H: hac
    I: i
    J: jota
    K: ca
    L: ela/ele/el
    M: ema/eme/em
    N: ena/ene/en
    O: o
    P: pe
    Q: cu
    R: erra/erre/er
    S: essa/esse/es
    T: te
    U: u
    V: ve (or "ve baixa")
    W: ve doble
    X: ics (or "xeix")
    Y: i grega
    Z: zeta

    Those are the names of the digraphs and modified letters:

    Ç: ce trencada
    GU: ge u
    IG: i ge
    LL: ela doble (or "ele doble" and "el doble")
    L·L: ela geminada (or "ele geminada" and "el geminada")
    NY: ena i grega (or "ene i grega" and "en i grega")
    QU: cu u
    RR: erra doble (or "erre doble" and "er doble")
    SS: essa doble (or "esse doble" and "es doble")
    TG: te ge
    TJ: te jota
    TX: te ics
    TZ: te zeta
     

    tenienteramires

    Senior Member
    Catalan - Occidental
    DCVB is a descriptive dictionary, it doesn't say what is standard or not, it contains all the words that were in use at that time, dialectalisms, archaisms, hispanisms... Wikipedia is wrong sometimes and must be edited in order to give the correct information.
     

    tenienteramires

    Senior Member
    Catalan - Occidental
    Can <tx> also be called te xeix?
    I have seen on Wikipedia that there is an alternative name for z, itzeta, is it in use? If so, how is it pronounced?
    You can call it "te xeix", but nobody says that actually. The name "xeix" is a synonim of "ics", but very few people use it except for specifying that it makes the sound [ʃ]. "Itzeta" is another name for the letter Z, but nobody uses it anymore.
     

    LoveVanPersie

    Senior Member
    Mandarin, Hakka
    In Eastern Catalan, the names 'el', 'ele' and 'ela' are pronounced [ˈeɫ], [ˈe.ɫe] and [ˈe.ɫa], with a velarised L [ɫ], as in all catalan dialects.
    English Wikipedia says "In Western varieties like Valencian, this dark l contrasts with a clear l in intervocalic and word-initial position; while in other dialects, like Alguerese or Northern Catalan, /l/ is never velarized in any instance."
    Is it correct?
     

    tenienteramires

    Senior Member
    Catalan - Occidental
    English Wikipedia says "In Western varieties like Valencian, this dark l contrasts with a clear l in intervocalic and word-initial position; while in other dialects, like Alguerese or Northern Catalan, /l/ is never velarized in any instance."
    Is it correct?
    In Western Catalan, as in all Catalan dialects, it's slightly velarised, but when it comes at the end of a syllable, it's more velarised.

    Depending on the speaker it can be always very velarised, especially in Eastern Catalan speakers, but it can happen also in Western ones.

    I don't know the case of Alguerese, but in traditional Northern Catalan it's velarised as in the other dialects. Nowadays because of Spanish and French influence, some young people pronounce all their L as light L.
     
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