Pronunciation: اشتُهر

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César Lasso

Senior Member
castellano, España
Split from here.

Some pronunciation corrections:
Yes, I wanted to correct Al Sulhafa's vocalization and then I saw you had corrected him, Elroy. But I disagree in just one word (Al Sulhafa was initially right):

It is ushtuhira, not *ishtuhira

Regards,

César, QaySar
 
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  • elroy

    Imperfect mod
    US English, Palestinian Arabic bilingual
    As I have previously made clear on this forum, I have never systematically studied Arabic verb patterns and generally use them by feel. Ushtuhira sounded wrong to me, and ishtuhira sounded better. But upon reflection, I am becoming more and more convinced that it should actually be either inshahara or ishtahara, both of which are undeniably correct.

    Does anyone have any authoritative sources that shed some light on this?

    By the way, Andrew, there is no need to conceal your objections if you disagree with something I say. :) No one is perfect, so next time you disagree with me, please say so. Don't just thank me and wait for someone else to point out whatever it is you have a problem with. That's not very effective. ;)
     

    César Lasso

    Senior Member
    castellano, España
    Hi, Elroy, I admire your style, your helpfulness, and your intelligent posts.

    Maybe Andrew noticed that single detail after my post.

    I think you are right, Elroy, it could be 'ishtahara'. But if (very hypothetically) I had to put the verb in the passive voice, it would be ushtuhira, not *ishtuhira.

    Regards
     

    Josh_

    Senior Member
    U.S., English
    If it is supposed to be a passive verb, then it would be ushtuhira, but upon thinking about it myself, I am not sure this verb has a passive form because it is a mediopassive verb, and to the best of my knowledge, mediopassives do not have passive forms. So I agree with Elroy that it should be ishtahara.
     
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    tigris lover

    New Member
    Arabic - Iraqi
    salam

    firstable; I would like to make sure if you mean ( became famous ) or not ..

    if it does really mean became famous in the passive form, then it's neither ushtuhira nor ishtuhira

    it's shuhira because the alif in the beginning and the ta'a in the middle don't add any meaning to the word besides their being زائدين

    so it will be شُهِرَ بضم الشين و كسر الهاء و فتح الراء

    About what you said elroy

    inshahara : is the local word or slang word for the passive verb ( shuhira )
     

    Mahaodeh

    Senior Member
    Arabic, PA and IA.
    I don't know what mediopassive means, but I agree with Josh and tigris in that it does not have a passive form becuase the passive form does not make sense, however I disagree with him in that it should be شُهِرَ becasue that's another verb altogether! There is no passive for for اشتهر at all.

    I disagree with elroy in that it could be inshahara because the verb form infa3ala is فعل مطاوعة for the basic verb (الفعل المجرد), and I doubt that شَهَرَ has an infa3ala form because the meaning of the verb does not give itself to such a case (unlike kasara and fata7a). However, inshahara is used in 3amiyya for shuhira as tigris mentioned.
     

    elroy

    Imperfect mod
    US English, Palestinian Arabic bilingual
    This is very intriguing. The consensus seems to be that اشتُهر doesn't exist, as I suspected. I'm interested in knowing why César and Josh believe that if it did exist it would be pronounced ushtuhira. Can anyone think of another verb of the same pattern (ifta3ala) that does have a passive-voice form? Because if not, we don't really have anything to base a pronunciation preference on.

    As for inshahara, indeed, in Palestinian Arabic we say inshahar, and I am happy to concede that that was a colloquial influence. :)

    I think we can all agree that ishtahara is the verb to go with here.
     

    Andrew___

    Senior Member
    The background to my view is as follows. Last week during my Arabic class I pronounced it "ishtahara", and was corrected by the teacher with "ushtuhira".

    I raised the specific question today and asked whether this is in fact correct. He said yes, it's ushtuhira. I then related the views of the forum, and he said "But every verb has a passive form!". I said "Hey I don't think that's quite correct, surely only transitive verbs have passive forms". He said "ok, I will check with the other teachers about the pronunciation of ushtuhira". Then later after checking with the others he confirmed it is "ushtuhira", but didn't explain the basis for the view.

    I feel sometimes that my lessons are like the blind leading the blind. ;)
     
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    César Lasso

    Senior Member
    castellano, España
    I feel sometimes that my lessons are like the blind leading the blind. ;)
    But you fight like a lion. One day you'll find yourself speaking fluently in Arabic without headaches. It's just a matter of time ;)

    Ok, I never argued that ushtuhira could exist. I only said that, if ishtahara had to be put in the passive (although it does not have a passive form), then it would be ushtuhira, not *ishtuhira.

    I think the verb imtaHana (to exam) can have a passive meaning (to take an exam):

    imtaHana -l-ustaadh(u) -t-talaamiidh(a)

    umtuHina -t-tilmiidh(u) fa-najaHa fii-l-imtiHaan(i)

    sa-umtahanu fii-l-3arabiyya(ti) lamma aktashifa ma3had(an) 3arabiyy(an) mashhuur(an) fii-isbaaniyyaa au fii-l-burtughaal Hattà aHSula 3alà wathiiqa(tan) mutaqabbala(tan) duwaliyy(an)


    By the way, if someone could suggest me something (I wrote the 3rd example thinking about my own needs ;))

    César, QaySar
     

    elroy

    Imperfect mod
    US English, Palestinian Arabic bilingual
    Personally, I would say imtuHina, and I have a hunch other native speakers would do the same. If umtuHina is prescriptively correct, then imtuHina is either a common error or my own personal quirk, but probably the former.

    And now I realize why I changed ushtuhura to ishtuhira. :)
     

    Mahaodeh

    Senior Member
    Arabic, PA and IA.
    I agree with elroy in that the hamza should be with a kasra; other examples would be iktutiba, iftuti7a, ikhtubira, istulima; the same goes for the verb form istaf3ala which would be istuf3la. However, saumtuHinu is correct because the present tense is yumtu7inu and the seen for future comes with the present tense.

    Andrew, actully it's a common mistake. I often hear it said ishtuhira even on the news (where they try their best to be as correct as possible). But for an Arabic teacher to make such a mistake is not very encoraging :).
     
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    César Lasso

    Senior Member
    castellano, España
    Well, Elroy and Mahaodeh, I still insist in that the past passive for the verb patterns ifta3ala and istaf3ala should be uftu3ila and ustuf3ila, with Damma and not kasra.

    However, saumtuHinu is correct because the present tense is yumtu7inu and the seen for future comes with the present tense.
    Not in the passive of the present tense:

    Active: yamta7inu;

    passive: yumta7anu.

    I hope other people might give their opinions?

    César, QaySar
     

    Andrew___

    Senior Member
    Andrew, actully it's a common mistake. I often hear it said ishtuhira even on the news (where they try their best to be as correct as possible). But for an Arabic teacher to make such a mistake is not very encoraging :).
    I can easily excuse a teacher making such an error, as it's a minor issue and, as you say, a common error. But when he explains the error by saying "All verbs have passive forms", at that point I become concerned ... As they say in the Egyptian dialect: "Eh bi-yegra hena!" ;)
     
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    cherine

    Moderator
    Arabic (Egypt).
    I agree with Elroy and Maha that these verbs in the passive are iftu3ila and not uftu3ila (it's even far easier for the pronounciation).

    Neither of us is providing a proof or a solid source to back his or her opinion, but we all seem to be so sure of our opinions :) So I really don't know what to say.
    Whoever can find a proof in a grammar book should post it. I'll try checking as soon as I can.

    Active: yamta7inu;
    passive: yumta7anu.
    Correct. But our disagreement is about the past tense form, not the present :)

    sa-umtahanu fii-l-3arabiyya(ti) wa lamma aktashif
    a
    ma3had(an) 3arabiyy(an) mashhuur(an) fii-isbaaniyyaa au fii-l-burtughaal Hattà aHSula 3alà wathiiqa(tin) mutaqabbala(tan) maqbuulatin duwaliyy(an)
    I hope you don't mind the few corrections, César.
     

    Josh_

    Senior Member
    U.S., English
    The background to my view is as follows. Last week during my Arabic class I pronounced it "ishtahara", and was corrected by the teacher with "ushtuhira".

    I raised the specific question today and asked whether this is in fact correct. He said yes, it's ushtuhira. I then related the views of the forum, and he said "But every verb has a passive form!". I said "Hey I don't think that's quite correct, surely only transitive verbs have passive forms". He said "ok, I will check with the other teachers about the pronunciation of ushtuhira". Then later after checking with the others he confirmed it is "ushtuhira", but didn't explain the basis for the view.

    I feel sometimes that my lessons are like the blind leading the blind. ;)
    I suggest you ask your teacher what the difference in meaning is between ushtuhira and ishtahara, and then ask him for examples of how each is used.

    As far as every verb having a passive, perhaps he meant that theoretically every verb could have a passive form (by rearranging the vowel structure). If not, ask him what the passive of the verb كان is.

    As far as iftu3ila instead uftu3ila, it must be a common error because I am fairly sure that the former is not (prescriptively) correct. In my classes I was taught that it was uftu3ila, but of course that alone is not proof enough. I have just finished looking through all my verb paradigm books, including the Arabic-Arabic ones I have, and they all list uftu3ila.
     
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    César Lasso

    Senior Member
    castellano, España
    I hope you don't mind the few corrections, César.
    It is a privilege to be corrected in my ignorance. Thank you very much for the corrections to my sentence.

    But with regard to the initial question of this thread (ustu3mila or istu3mila), I am now in disagreement with Elroy, Mahaodeh and Cherine, and I found some evidence:

    Author: F. Corriente
    Title: Gramática Árabe
    Publisher: Herder (www.herdereditorial.com)
    ISBN: 84-254-2482-8
    ----------------------------------page of the verbal paradigm: 270

    Federico Corriente is one of the most respected arabists in Spain. I don't like his personality, but I must admit that his vast amount of knowledge is absolutely amazing.

    Regards,

    César, QaySar
     

    elroy

    Imperfect mod
    US English, Palestinian Arabic bilingual
    This seems to be yet another prescriptivist-descriptivist clash. I had no idea there was such a thing as ustu3mila, which sounds dreadful. :eek:

    So non-natives should know that while ustu3mila et alia may be prescriptively correct, if you use them you will sound odd.
     

    elroy

    Imperfect mod
    US English, Palestinian Arabic bilingual
    Not in all contexts, as you well know. ;)

    (Furthermore, you could be reading a text aloud and if you said ustu3mila, it would hurt my sensitive ears. :D)
     

    César Lasso

    Senior Member
    castellano, España
    Well, I found this thread fascinating. The fact that non-natives can discuss with natives and contribute both sides to the knowledge of Arabic only shows the Universal condition of this language. How many non-natives would dare discuss with a native of Dowayo (North of Cameroon) the subtleties of his language? :)
     
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