Many Romance languages: risk of confusion

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Nino83

Senior Member
Italian
When I went to Barcelona most people preferred that I spoke in Italian.
We understood each others speaking Italian and Castellano.
 
  • Guajara-Mirim

    Senior Member
    Français
    When I went to Barcelona most people preferred that I spoke in Italian.
    We understood each others speaking Italian and Castellano.
    Loro capiscono l'italiano a Barcelona? Per esempio, si dici: "dove posso comprare delle forchette, dei coltelli e dei bicchieri per mangiare il cibo?" Loro caspicosno le parole come forchette, coltelli e bichieri?
     

    francisgranada

    Senior Member
    Hungarian
    Loro capiscono l'italiano a Barcelona? Per esempio, si dici: "dove posso comprare delle forchette, dei coltelli e dei bicchieri per mangiare il cibo?" Loro caspicosno le parole come forchette, coltelli e bichieri?
    Perché pensi che a Barcellona il nostro amico Nino voleva comprare addirittura forchette, coltelli e bicchieri :D? ... (sto scherzando). Invece, a Barcellona parlano (credo la maggioranza) anche spagnolo e quindi la loro comunicazione funzionava meglio così (cioè Italian-Castilian rispetto a Italian-Catalan).
     
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    Nino83

    Senior Member
    Italian
    No, assolutamente.
    Però per le domande come: "dove sta tale via?" (onde está?) oppure "quanto costa?" (cuanto cuesta?) o "come si arriva a?" (como se arriva) oppure "quando apre il parco?" (cuando abre el parque?) oppure quando chiedevano "qué ustedes beben?" (che cosa i signori bevono?) la comprensione è quasi automatica.
    Non per tutto, ovviamente. Ero in vacanza. :)
     

    francisgranada

    Senior Member
    Hungarian
    I think the Spanish-Italian mutual comprehensibility, from the Italian point of view, is partly due also to the phonetical diversity within Italy. For example the voiced pronounciation in Rome, Naples, the alternation between e/i in some dialects (de, en, el ... instead of di, in, il ...), etc ... So I think a native Italian will automatically understand words like abre, llama, amado, venido, de, en, el ... also because the "Italian ear" is used to such pronounciation. For example, "come si chiama" sounds almost exactly as "como se llama" in Spanish, when pronounced with a Romanesco accent.
     

    ACQM

    Senior Member
    Spain - Spanish
    No, assolutamente.
    Però per le domande come: "dove sta tale via?" (onde está?) oppure "quanto costa?" (cuanto cuesta?) o "come si arriva a?" (como se arriva) oppure "quando apre il parco?" (cuando abre el parque?) oppure quando chiedevano "qué ustedes beben?" (che cosa i signori bevono?) la comprensione è quasi automatica.
    Non per tutto, ovviamente. Ero in vacanza. :)
    Yo no hablo italiano, pero he entendido este hilo. Los catalanes hablamos 2 lenguas romances, eso hace bastante fácil entender una tercera, especialmente con el portugués y el italiano. En un restaurante o un hotel o para entender conversaciones muy básicas, nos resulta más sencillo entender a un italiano hablando italiano despacio que a un italiano hablando un mal inglés (aunque hayamos estudiado inglés y no italiano).

    Con el italiano pasa que la pronunciación y ciertas formas verbales se parecen al español y el vocabulario sencillo (como forchette) se parece al catalán.

    "Come si arriva a?" en español es "¿Cómo se llega a ?" y en catalán es "Com s'arriba a ...?" Como dice Nino, no sabemos hablar italiano instintivamente pero si entendemos conversaciones sencillas con vocabulario básico.
     

    francisgranada

    Senior Member
    Hungarian
    Además, muchas palabras (o derivaciones de ellas) existen en ambas lenguas (en español e italiano), aunque no usadas exactamente en el mismo sentido. P.e. mangiare (es. manjar), comer (it. commestibile), arrivare (es. arribar), etc ... Es decir, en un contexto concreto, con "una poca fantasía", se pueden mutuamente comprender también algunas palabras que son diferentes en las dichas lenguas.

    Lo que me parece importante desde el punto de vista de la comprensión, es la entonación y la fonética y la "integridad" de la forma escrita (respecto a la forma original latina) de la palabra. Por ejemplo, la semejanza gramatical entre el italiano y el francés "no vale" cuando las palabras correspondientes, bienque etimológicamente comunes, se pronuncian y escriben del todo diferentemente, por ejemplo "(io) voglio" e "je veux", "(io) sono nata" e "je suis née", etc. ...
     
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    olaszinho

    Senior Member
    Central Italian
    For example, "come si chiama" sounds almost exactly as "como se llama" in Spanish, when pronounced with a Romanesco accent.
    Szia Francis
    Really? :eek: I don't think so, but you know foreign people might have a different opinion. I am not from Rome, but as far as I know in Roman, the simple sentence you mentioned, should sound something like "come se chiama" and the intonation is not so similar to the Spanish one, at least to my ear. It is true that a few consonants, such as ð ɣ β
    are the same or quite similar in some Italian dialects, for instance my native dialect has all these sounds. Needless to say, I could master them easily, it was a piece of cake. ;)
    In my view, Catalan is a sort of bridge language and it is problably the most similar to Italian. I was so surprised when I began to learn it, it shares lots of features with Northen Italian dialects and the grammar is a "mixture" of French, Spanish and Italian. Unfortunately the structure and vocabulary are deeply influenced by Castilian these days. Catalan shares more sounds with Italian than Spanish,but due to the schwa it may sound a bit alien at the beginning, but after a brief exposure to the language, Catalan becomes more and more familiar, unlike Spanish.
     
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    francisgranada

    Senior Member
    Hungarian
    Really? :eek: I don't think so, but you know foreign people might have a different opinion. I am not from Rome, but as far as I know in Roman, the simple sentence you mentioned, should sound something like "come se chiama" and the intonation is not so similar to the Spanish one ...
    Szia Olaszinho!

    The intonation may be slightly different, depending on the context, finally this sentence is too short to analyze it's intonation precisely. What I wanted to say is "se" instead of "si" and [ɣ] instead of [k]. I.e. "chiama" sounds "ɣiama" (sometimes almost "iama", to my ear), and the Spanish "llama" tends to sound also "iama" (depending on the region, of course), even if for different reasons. Maybe I'm wrong with "como" in Romanesco (sorry if so), however the form "como" (instead of "come") exists also in some regional languages in Italy (the Romanesco is only an example in the context of the present discussion) .

    Other examples: [aβre, amaðo] instead of [apri, amato] which sound also similar to the Spanish abre, amado (at least to me :))...
     
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    Nino83

    Senior Member
    Italian
    In Sicilian we say "comu si gghiama" [komu si ggiama] that is very similar to "como se llama" [komo se ʎama].
    Anyway there are so much synonyms that it's not hard to understand each other.
    Capire = comprendere = comprendre = comprender or chiamarsi = appellarsi = s'appeler = llamarse and sometimes there is some equivalent in the dialect, for example tovagliolo o fazzoletto is in Sicilian sabbietta or savvietta as the French serviette or albicocca is in Sicilian pricopa that is very similar to French abricot.
    Sometimes there's no equivalent (as querer, comer).

    Francis is right when he says that in Romanesco some words are pronunced with [e] as in me/te/se ama (personal pronouns). Another example is the definite articles in Portuguese, o/a pronunced /[a] that are identical to Sicilian u/a (u campu, a casa, in this case Sicilian = Portuguese) and some contractions are similar to Romanesco (es. io to/gliò dico and eu to/lho digo).
    Another proof is that I understood all the last comments written in Spanish without having to consulte any dictionary.

    EDIT:

    It's true that the past participle as amado, venido are pretty similar to Romanesco. Listen to Francesco Totti. All the "t" became "d".
     
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    ACQM

    Senior Member
    Spain - Spanish
    Ancient Catalan was quite similar to ancient French, but then they evolve in different ways. The basic vocabulary of Italian, French and Catalan is quite alike and may be different to Spanish and Portuguese. That is because of the distance to Rome during the Roman Empire (in hours of journey, not in kilometres), as Catalan was started near the Mediterranean the vulgar Latin spoken there was similar to the one spoken in Rome, while the vulgar Latin spoken in the north-west of the Iberian Peninsule, where Portuguese and Spanish were started, was more "old-fashioned".

    That's way the Catalan people can understand some easy sentences in Italian, because it sounds similar to Spanish but the vocabulray that comes from vulgar Latin in Italian is similar to the one in Catalan.

    For instance:
    formaggio (Italian)= formatge (Catalan)=fromage (French)=queso (Spanish)=queijo (Portuguese)

    What Francisgranada says about "similar" words, like "arrivare" and "arribar" that does not mean the same now but have the same etimology, is important too.

    For Portuguese is the other way arround, it sounds somehow similar to Catalan for things like the o/u pronunciation and contractions that, according to Nino, are the same in Sicilian, but the vocabulary of Portuguese is more similar to Spanish.

    For French it is similar to Catalan when read but more difficult to understand spoken than Italian or Portuguese.
     

    Nino83

    Senior Member
    Italian
    In Italian the word "cacio" is not used for cheese in general (except for "ci sta come il cacio sui maccheroni") but it is used for some types of cheese (es. caciocavallo, caciotta) and it is understood by Italian people.

    For Portuguese is the other way arround, it sounds somehow similar to Catalan for things like the o/u pronunciation and contractions that, according to Nino, are the same in Sicilian, but the vocabulary of Portuguese is more similar to Spanish.
    This is because the short latin vowel "u" becomes "o" in Italian, Spanish, (old) French and Portuguese but it becomes "u" in Sicilian. Given that in Portuguese all unstressed "o" are pronunced , the sentences "o campo é belo" [u kampu e belu] and "u campu è beddu" [u kampu è beɖɖu] sound similar.

    So, after different itineraries, the portuguese unstressed "o" and the sicilian "u" (from the short latin "u") are pronunced "u".

    Ciao
     
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    olaszinho

    Senior Member
    Central Italian
    Cacio is a perfect synonym for formaggio in Italian. It is still used in Tuscany, Umbria and other areas in Central Italy. To be honest, I have to say that formaggio is much more common in standard Italian nowadays.
     

    Nino83

    Senior Member
    Italian
    Cacio is a perfect synonym for formaggio in Italian. It is still used in Tuscany, Umbria and other areas in Central Italy. To be honest, I have to say that formaggio is much more common in standard Italian nowadays.
    This use is only regional.
    Normally one doesn't say at supermarket "che tipo di cacio avete?" or at the restaurant "può portare del cacio grattugiato?".
     

    francisgranada

    Senior Member
    Hungarian
    Turning back to the original question, I think to master a certain amount of different words is not a problem (rather normal), finally one understands both formaggio and queso, and the probability to confuse them is mininal, as formaggio doesn't sound Spanish and queso ("cheso") is not a typical Italian "kind of word" (even if phonetically possible).

    I have a cocrete example of mine for the possible confusion: when I have to use the verb "salir(e)" I always have to stop for a while and to realize whether I am speaking Italian or Spanish :) ... (interestingly, it doesn't happen with "largo", for example)

    P.S. As to cacio, I know this word only from dictionaries, never heard in Italy (however my experiences are limited, of course)
     
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    olaszinho

    Senior Member
    Central Italian
    No one has mentioned syntax so far. In my opinion Italian syntax is quite different from the Spanish one:
    Some examples:
    Siempre he ido de vacaciones
    Sono sempre andato in vancanza
    Te ruego que me des las llaves
    Ti prego di darmi le chiavi
    Pienso que està en casa
    Penso che sia/stia a/in casa
    A casa mia
    en mi casa
    He decidido/decidì vivir en el extranjero
    Ho deciso/decisi di vivere all'estero
    Estoy convencido de que nadie pierde a nadie
    Sono convinto che nessuno perda nessuno
    Quando andrò a Roma vedrò il Papa
    Cuando vaya a Roma veré al papa
    Nunca he estado en Portugal
    Non sono mai stato in Portogallo
    L'ho già mangiata
    Ya la he comido
    These are only a few examples.
    In my view, the structure of the two languages may be easily mixed up even after many years of practice; different words are quite easy to memorize after all...Obviously this is also true for other Romance languages.
     
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    francisgranada

    Senior Member
    Hungarian
    ... Anyway there are so much synonyms that it's not hard to understand each other ...
    Yes, and not only ... There are also grammatical similiraties between the Spanish and some regional languages in Italy. For example the usage of essere versus stare, tenere instead of avere, the conditional in -ia (<imperfetto, instead of -ebbe <passato remoto) in Neapolitan etc.

    Curiosity: my bolognese friend used to call braga (braghe, in plural) his "short trousers" (I don't know the adequate English term). As the context was clear, I understood him, of course. Turning back home, I couldn't find this word in none of my Italian dictionaries, but in the Spanish dictionary yes (even if with a slightly different meaning).
     
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    Nino83

    Senior Member
    Italian
    Yes, and not only ... There are also grammatical similiraties between the Spanish and some regional languages in Italy. For example the usage of essere versus stare, tenere instead of avere, the conditional in -ia (<imperfetto, instead of -ebbe <passato remoto) in Neapolitan etc.
    Yes.
    In Sicilian we use to have as ausiliar for all verbs (also intransitive verbs). Es. Avìa annatu (ero andato, I had gone, había ido). The imperfect indicative and the conditional are similar (cantava, havìa, vinìa for cantaba, había, venía and cant'rìa, hav'rìa, vin'rìa for cantaría, haría, vendría).
    We also say avi (hay) for there is, c'è. Es. Non'avi puma (non ci sono mele, no hay manzanas).
    We use the verb to have also for have to (instead of dovere, deber). Es. Haiu annari a scola (devo andare a scuola, I have to go to school).
     
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    francisgranada

    Senior Member
    Hungarian
    ... The imperfect indicative and the conditional are similar (cantava, havìa, vinìa for cantaba, había, venía).
    Thanks, it's an interesting information for me :).
    Avìa annatu (ero andato, I had gone, había ido)
    Also había andado in Spanish (though not meaning exactly the same)

    A porpos: versions of the Spanish verb "ir" (ire, gire ... < Latin ire) do also exist in some regional languages in Italy, and as far as I remember, also in Neapoletan. Does this verb exist also in Sicilian (iri/giri ? ...) or not at all?
     
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    Nino83

    Senior Member
    Italian
    A porpos: versions of the Spanish verb "ir" (ire, gire ... < Latin ire) do also exist in some regional languages in Italy, and as far as I remember, also in Neapoletan. Does this verb exist also in Sicilian (iri/giri ? ...) or not at all?
    Yes, but it is rare. It's used only in very few phrases as in "vadda p'unni è iri/annari" (lett: vedi per dove devi andare) and "si nnì ìu/annau" (se n'è andato).

    EDIT:
    I'm reading on Italian wikipedia that "annari" is used in the dialect of Messina (I'm from Messina), so the verb iri is used in other Sicilian dialects.
     
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    francisgranada

    Senior Member
    Hungarian
    Yes, but it is rare. It's used only in very few phrases as in "vadda p'unni è iri/annari" (lett: vedi per dove devi andare) and "si nnì ìu/annau" (lett: se n'è andato).
    Really interesting (even if the verb iri is today archaical in Sicilian, at least in some regions):
    ìu corresponds to Andalusian ío (total lenition of intervocalic "d")
    unni corresponds to the Spanish onde (today donde) and not to the standard Italian dove
    From an Italian point of view I'd say that Romanian is the most different language.
    The majority of the prepositions and conjunctions are different (perchè/pourquoi/porque and pentru că, sopra/sur/sobre and pe, and so on), the enclitic definite arcticle, the oblique case (in this case the feminine singular nouns have the same ending of the plural form), the vocative case, most words derive from slavic languages.
    The Slavic words in Romanian are not too difficult to recognize for me, but it does not automatically mean that I understand their particular meaning. E.g. dragoste means "love" (or something similar, correct me if not true), but what I can spontaneousely understand, is drag- that means "dear, expensive, caro, querido ...".

    In Romanian there are also words of Hungarian origin (even if not so numerous as those of Slavic origin), e.g. hotar (< Hung. határ [border, frontera, confine]). They are mostly quite easily recognizable (and understandable for a native Hungarian).

    So, I can agree with you, even if not from an Italian, but rather from a "Romance/Slavic/Hungarian speaking" point of view. I can spontaneousely understand better texts written e.g. in Ibero-Romance minority languages (extremeño, eonaviego, asturiano ...), or in Sicilian and Catalan, than texts written in Romanian. Of course, I'm speaking about relatively "simple" texts, not about novels, poems etc ...
     
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    Nino83

    Senior Member
    Italian
    Now I'm thinking that maybe understanding Spanish is a bit natural for me because of my knowledge of both Italian and Sicilian language/dialect but without a doubt it's true that Spanish and Portuguese vocabulary is less similar than French one.
     
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    francisgranada

    Senior Member
    Hungarian
    Now I'm thinking that maybe understanding Spanish is a bit natural for me because of my knowledge of both Italian and Sicilian language/dialect but without a doubt it's true that Spanish and Portuguese vocabulary is less similar than French one.
    Surely true, but .... Some "basic" words like regalo (sp. regalo), comprare (sp. comprar), andare (sp. andar, even if the meaning is not exactly the same, but mutually comprehensible), casa (sp. casa), stare (sp. estar), dare (sp. dar),... and many others practically do not exist in French, but in Spanish (and Portuguese) yes.
     

    olaszinho

    Senior Member
    Central Italian
    Surely true, but .... Some "basic" words like regalo (sp. regalo), comprare (sp. comprar), andare (sp. andar, even if the meaning is not exactly the same, but mutually comprehensible), casa (sp. casa), stare (sp. estar), dare (sp. dar),... and many others practically do not exist in French, but in Spanish (and Portuguese) yes.

    A palavra “Regalo” nᾶo existe em português, diz-se lembrança ou presente.
    La case, c’est une sorte de cabane en français. :)
     

    merquiades

    Senior Member
    English (USA Northeast)
    A palavra “Regalo” nᾶo existe em português, diz-se lembrança ou presente.
    La case, c’est une sorte de cabane en français. :)
    Pergunto-me quais serâo as origens da palavra "presente". Nâo acho que seja um anglicismo. Existe em teoria também em francês. E muito estranho.
    La case c'est une cabane un peu primitive comme on en trouve en Afrique. "Régal" est un faux ami, comme un grand plaisir inattendu.
     

    olaszinho

    Senior Member
    Central Italian
    Pergunto-me quais serâo as origens da palavra "presente". Nâo acho que seja um anglicismo. Existe em teoria também em francês. E muito estranho.
    La case c'est une cabane un peu primitive comme on en trouve en Afrique. "Régal" est un faux ami, comme un grand plaisir inattendu.
    Também em italiano temos a palavra “presente” com o mesmo sentido. O meu dicionário diz que vem do francês antigo “présent”. Acho que esta palavra passou ao inglês a partir do francês.
     

    merquiades

    Senior Member
    English (USA Northeast)
    Também em italiano temos a palavra “presente” com o mesmo sentido. O meu dicionário diz que vem do francês antigo “présent”. Acho que esta palavra passou ao inglês a partir do francês.
    Possívelmente os convidados davam "presentes" nas soirées para fazer constar a sua "presença" ali.:confused:
     

    Nanon

    Senior Member
    français (France)
    Pergunto-me quais serâo as origens da palavra "presente". Nâo acho que seja um anglicismo. Existe em teoria também em francês. E muito estranho.
    É só pedir :):
    FR présent (3)
    Ca 1140 (Voyage Charlemagne, éd. G. Favati, 112: li presenz que Carles i offret); 1804 présens d'usage (Code civil, art. 852, p.155). Déverbal de présenter*.
    Présenter : Empr. au lat. d'époque impériale praesentare «présenter, rendre présent; offrir», dér. de praesens (présent1*).
    EN present
    c.1200, "thing offered, what is offered or given as a gift," from Old French present and Medieval Latin presentia, from phrases such as French en present "(to offer) in the presence of," mettre en present "place before, give," from Late Latin inpraesent "face to face," from Latin in re praesenti "in the situation in question," from praesens "being there" (see present (adj.)), on the notion of "bringing something into someone's presence."
     

    funnyhat

    Senior Member
    American English
    I have tried to tackle Latin several times but I have always failed. It should be the missing link for me to really excel in all of them. The mother from which all the "dialects" sprung. Yet, it doesn't jump out at me, so to speak. I know of it now, but I still don't know it. It's at 2%.
    Keep in mind that you are studying Classical Latin, and not Vulgar Latin. Vulgar Latin is the true "mother" of the Romance languages; Classical Latin is more like their grandmother.
     
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    Outsider

    Senior Member
    Portuguese (Portugal)
    A palavra “Regalo” nᾶo existe em português, diz-se lembrança ou presente.
    La case, c’est une sorte de cabane en français. :)
    Permita-me corrigi-lo: "regalo" existe em português, embora se use menos:
    regalo
    s. m.
    1. Bem-estar prolongado (tanto físico como moral).
    2. Molície, comodidades da vida; prazer.
    3. Prato ou manjar de que muito gostamos.
    4. Presente, mimo com que se brinda a alguém.
    Há até um verbo "regalar", que entre outras coisas significa presentear.

    Quanto a "presente", claro: é aquilo que se apresenta aos nossos anfitriões!
     

    merquiades

    Senior Member
    English (USA Northeast)
    No one has mentioned syntax so far. In my opinion Italian syntax is quite different from the Spanish one:
    Some examples:
    Pienso que està en casa
    Penso che sia/stia a/in casa

    In my view, the structure of the two languages may be easily mixed up even after many years of practice; different words are quite easy to memorize after all...
    Utilizzate "stare" in italiano per indicare la posizione? Non sapevo che fosse possibile.
     

    olaszinho

    Senior Member
    Central Italian
    Permita-me corrigi-lo: "regalo" existe em português, embora se use menos:

    Há até um verbo "regalar", que entre outras coisas significa presentear.

    Quanto a "presente", claro: é aquilo que se apresenta aos nossos anfitriões!
    Obrigado pela informaçᾶo que me deu! Conhecia o verbo “regalar” mas acho que presentear é muito mais comum, nᾶo é? Quanto à palavra “regalo”, como sinônimo de presente, no meu dicionário italiano-português diz-se que caiu em desuso e por isso deveria ser uma espécie de arcaísmo hoje em dia, talvez me engane? Se eu dissesse “trouxe-te um regalo, como soaria em português?
     
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    olaszinho

    Senior Member
    Central Italian
    Utilizzate "stare" in italiano per indicare la posizione? Non sapevo che fosse possibile.

    Da' un'occhiata anche a quanto scrive il dizionario Treccani sul verbo stare col significato di essere, trovarsi e permanere in un dato luogo:
    "Essere, trovarsi, permanere in un dato luogo, o in una determinata condizione: stava ad attendermi all’angolo della strada; s. alla porta, alla finestra (per l’uso fig. di s. alla finestra, v. finestra, n. 1 b); s. intorno al fuoco; s. in casa, all’aperto, al coperto, all’aria, al chiuso; s. al fresco, all’ombra, al sole (e analogam. s. al buio, s. con la luce accesa, s. a finestre chiuse, spalancate, ecc.); s. in fila; s. in compagnia; s. in disparte; preferisco star solo; con valore un po’ diverso: sta tutto il giorno senza far nulla. In qualche caso, trovarsi o rimanere esposto, soprattutto a disagi: s. alle intemperie, alla pioggia, al vento, al freddo; E io anima trista non son sola, Ché tutte queste a simil pena stanno (Dante). Spesso, indicando il posto in cui si sta, si allude al compito, all’ufficio che si svolge: sta alla cassa; sta in cucina; sta al timone; sta all’ufficio delle ipoteche; e così s. di sentinella, di guardia; s. al comando, ecc.
     
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    Angelo di fuoco

    Senior Member
    Russian & German (GER) bilingual
    No one has mentioned syntax so far. In my opinion Italian syntax is quite different from the Spanish one:
    Some examples:

    Siempre he ido de vacaciones
    Sono sempre andato in vancanza
    The auxiliar verb and the principal verb (finite/infinite) are inseparable in Spanish, nothing can be placed between them.
    Te ruego que me des las llaves
    Ti prego di darmi le chiavi
    Also possible:
    Te pido de darme las llaves
    Ti prego che mi dia le chiavi
    The inifinitive construction is more used with the irregular verbs and the -ere & -ire conjugation in the 2nd person singular because the congiuntivo forms are identical throughout the present singular; the 1st & 2nd persons singular are identical in the congiuntivo imperfetto of all verbs.

    Pienso que està en casa
    Penso che sia/stia a/in casa
    The preference of the congiuntivo over the indicativo in Italian with this particular verb has little to do with syntax. By the way, with reference to the future Italian uses the indicative with both pensare & credere.
    A casa mia
    en mi casa
    Also possible in Spanish: en casa mía.
    He decidido/decidì vivir en el extranjero
    Ho deciso/decisi di vivere all'estero
    Whether a verb goes with a preposion (which) or without, is a tricky matter indeed.
    Estoy convencido de que nadie pierde a nadie
    Sono convinto che nessuno perda nessuno
    Once again, subjunctive over indicative, so nothing syntactical, strictly speaking, but the Spanish "dequeísmo"-type conjunctions with relative clauses is particular indeed. However, the personal accusative/direct object marker is also present in Napoletan.
    Quando andrò a Roma vedrò il Papa
    Cuando vaya a Roma veré al papa
    The congiuntivo in temporal clauses with reference to the future was possible in Italian as late as in the 19th century. However, the preference for one mood over another once again has nothing to do with syntax (word order) in a sentence.
    Nunca he estado en Portugal
    Non sono mai stato in Portogallo
    Also possible:
    Mai sono stato in Portogallo.

    L'ho già mangiata
    Ya la he comido
    The inseparability of the auxiliar verb and the principal verb, as in the first example.
    These are only a few examples.
    In my view, the structure of the two languages may be easily mixed up even after many years of practice; different words are quite easy to memorize after all...
    In my experience the confusion of words can happen as easily after many years of practice. Just yesterday I wrote "le dimanche passé" instead of "le dimanche dernier".
     

    Angelo di fuoco

    Senior Member
    Russian & German (GER) bilingual
    Yes, and not only ... There are also grammatical similiraties between the Spanish and some regional languages in Italy. For example the usage of essere versus stare, tenere instead of avere, the conditional in -ia (<imperfetto, instead of -ebbe <passato remoto) in Neapolitan etc.

    Curiosity: my bolognese friend used to call braga (braghe, in plural) his "short trousers" (I don't know the adequate English term). As the context was clear, I understood him, of course. Turning back home, I couldn't find this word in none of my Italian dictionaries, but in the Spanish dictionary yes (even if with a slightly different meaning).
    Isn't "brache" also possible?
     

    merquiades

    Senior Member
    English (USA Northeast)
    Sì, in taluni casi si utilizza: "ti consiglio di stare a casa alcuni giorni per guarire meglio", in questo caso non potresti usare essere, tutt'al più restare. Altro esempio: credo che stia/resti in casa il fine settimana. Bada bene che in tutti questi esempi, il verbo stare non indica posizione.
    Va bene, Olaszinho. Ora capisco. "Stare" in questi esempi significa "rimanere in un posto durante molto tempo." Insomma è come "stay": stay home a few days, all weekend long. Se un spagnolo dice che "sta in casa" un italiano crede che forse sia ammalato o in ogni caso non pensa muoversi.
     

    Angelo di fuoco

    Senior Member
    Russian & German (GER) bilingual
    Yes.
    In Sicilian we use to have as ausiliar for all verbs (also intransitive verbs). Es. Avìa annatu (ero andato, I had gone, había ido). The imperfect indicative and the conditional are similar (cantava, havìa, vinìa for cantaba, había, venía and cant'rìa, hav'rìa, vin'rìa for cantaría, haría, vendría).
    We also say avi (hay) for there is, c'è. Es. Non'avi puma (non ci sono mele, no hay manzanas).
    We use the verb to have also for have to (instead of dovere, deber). Es. Haiu annari a scola (devo andare a scuola, I have to go to school).
    The Italian imperfect indicative before Manzoni is also similar (cantava, avea, venia for both 1st & 3rd person singular), whereas the the conditional mood before Manzoni permitted alternative forms (-ia vs. -ebbe).
    Avvi/v'ha/v'è existed in Italian before Manzoni.
    I think that Manzoni killed the richness of the alterntive forms in Italian, deciding for one form against several others.

    The particularity of the Sicilian verb "aviri" in the sense of "to have" is that is used without preposition. In Spanish, you have the choice between "tener que" (the most spontaneous choice), "tener de" (rare), "haber de" (the second or third most frequent option, I think, but rather literary) and "deber".
     

    Angelo di fuoco

    Senior Member
    Russian & German (GER) bilingual
    Thanks, it's an interesting information for me :).

    Also había andado in Spanish (though not meaning exactly the same)

    A porpos: versions of the Spanish verb "ir" (ire, gire ... < Latin ire) do also exist in some regional languages in Italy, and as far as I remember, also in Neapoletan. Does this verb exist also in Sicilian (iri/giri ? ...) or not at all?
    The verb ire, gire also exists in Italian (used as late as the 19th century), but it's obsolete.
     

    olaszinho

    Senior Member
    Central Italian
    Ti prego che mi dia le chiavi

    This sounds odd in contemporary Italian.

    Mai sono stato in Portogallo.

    True, but this is not the normal position of mai in Italian, you example sounds rather emphatic.


    Also possible in Spanish: en casa mía.

    I don't know whether this form is common and widespread in Spanish.....


    Quando andrò a Roma vedrò il Papa
    Cuando vaya a Roma veré al papa
    The congiuntivo in temporal clauses with reference to the future was possible in Italian as late as in the 19th century. However, the preference for one mood over another once again has nothing to do with syntax (word order) in a sentence.

    I was not only referring to the use of the subjective but also to the personal accusative "a" in Spanish.

    Anyway I have got lots of simple examples of differences between Spanish and Italian:

    Ce/ve ne sono molte
    Hay muchas....
    Ne ho lette tre
    He leìdo tres and so on

    Last but not least, syntax does include verb tenses and their use. You can have a look at some book titles about grammar....
     
    Last edited:

    Angelo di fuoco

    Senior Member
    Russian & German (GER) bilingual
    Someone speaks to me in dialect and uses "gire" a lot, plus something like "mangná" for "mangiare" and basically cuts off endings. Do you know how to conjugate "gire"?
    I think gire is a defective verb, as is ire. As the sole leftover in modern language you have "gita" (a little trip). Magnà is typical for both Rome & Naples.

    A quotation from Gabriele D'Annunzio's "Francesca da Rimini":

    Marzo è giunto e febbraio gito se n'è col ghiado.

    Take note that this is a line (the first one, I think) from a song, and the language of the songs in D'Annunzio's "Francesca" da Rimini uses particularly archaic, rare or obsolete words ("gito", "ghiado") - arcaizzante - and a very unusual and complicated syntax ("gito se n'è") - ricercata.
     

    merquiades

    Senior Member
    English (USA Northeast)
    I think gire is a defective verb, as is ire. As the sole leftover in modern language you have "gita" (a little trip). Magnà is typical for both Rome & Naples
    .

    I've heard "giam" or maybe "gim" that I've interpreted as "vamos"

    A quotation from Gabriele D'Annunzio's "Francesca da Rimini":

    Marzo è giunto e febbraio gito se n'è col ghiado.

    Take note that this is a line (the first one, I think) from a song, and the language of the songs in D'Annunzio's "Francesca" da Rimini uses particularly archaic, rare or obsolete words ("gito", "ghiado") - arcaizzante - and a very unusual and complicated syntax ("gito se n'è") - ricercata.
    Maybe the unusual syntax is contrived to fit into the rhythm and rhymes of the song?
     

    olaszinho

    Senior Member
    Central Italian
    Merquiades, peut-être n’as- tu pas lu ceci:

    Da' un'occhiata anche a quanto scrive il dizionario Treccani sul verbo stare col significato di essere, trovarsi e permanere in un dato luogo:
    "Essere, trovarsi, permanere in un dato luogo, o in una determinata condizione: stava ad attendermi all’angolo della strada; s. alla porta, alla finestra (per l’uso fig. di s. alla finestra, v. finestra, n. 1 b); s. intorno al fuoco; s. in casa, all’aperto, al coperto, all’aria, al chiuso; s. al fresco, all’ombra, al sole (e analogam. s. al buio, s. con la luce accesa, s. a finestre chiuse, spalancate, ecc.); s. in fila; s. in compagnia; s. in disparte; preferisco star solo; con valore un po’ diverso: sta tutto il giorno senza far nulla. In qualche caso, trovarsi o rimanere esposto, soprattutto a disagi: s. alle intemperie, alla pioggia, al vento, al freddo; E io anima trista non son sola, Ché tutte queste a simil pena stanno (Dante). Spesso, indicando il posto in cui si sta, si allude al compito, all’ufficio che si svolge: sta alla cassa; sta in cucina; sta al timone; sta all’ufficio delle ipoteche; e così s. di sentinella, di guardia; s. al comando, ecc.
     

    Angelo di fuoco

    Senior Member
    Russian & German (GER) bilingual
    Jammo (with j=i and the final vowel reduced to a schwa) is Napoletan for "andiamo" (and the infinitive is "ghi" or "ji" or something of that sort). If the second syllable (mo) wasn't there, I don't know which daughter dialect of Latin it was. The Adriatic daughter languages of Latin (with the exception of Venetian), due to their somewhat peripheric situation, aren't as famous as Napoletan or Sicilian.

    D'Annunzio's mastery of the Italian language was so great that I cannot even imagine he had to contrive something to make it fit. On the whole the language of his "Francesca da Rimini" is rich to the point of exuberance, very complex & highly stylised. Some would even say artificial or precious (in the literary sense of the word). As a consequence, the songs had to be all that to an even higher degree in order to be recognisable as poetic language within the already highly poetic "colloquial" language of this drama.
    I think one aspect was that he was trying to imitate late Medieval or early Renaissance forms of poetry with its complex rhyme structures (both internal and verse-final), and the other was that the sensations triggered by the sonority of a single word were very important for his poetics (I suggest you read one of his most famous poems, "La pioggia nel pineto"). D'Annunzio treated rhythm very freely (see the same poem), so I don't think he did restrict himself in this way.

    By the way, the invention of the word "tramezzino" is attributed to D'Annunzio, as well as - according to my Italian language teacher at the university - the only Italian word with two q in a row: soqquadro.
     

    merquiades

    Senior Member
    English (USA Northeast)
    Merquiades, peut-être n’as- tu pas lu ceci:

    Da' un'occhiata anche a quanto scrive il dizionario Treccani sul verbo stare col significato di essere, trovarsi e permanere in un dato luogo:
    "Essere, trovarsi, permanere in un dato luogo, o in una determinata condizione: stava ad attendermi all’angolo della strada; s. alla porta, alla finestra (per l’uso fig. di s. alla finestra, v. finestra, n. 1 b); s. intorno al fuoco; s. in casa, all’aperto, al coperto, all’aria, al chiuso; s. al fresco, all’ombra, al sole (e analogam. s. al buio, s. con la luce accesa, s. a finestre chiuse, spalancate, ecc.); s. in fila; s. in compagnia; s. in disparte; preferisco star solo; con valore un po’ diverso: sta tutto il giorno senza far nulla. In qualche caso, trovarsi o rimanere esposto, soprattutto a disagi: s. alle intemperie, alla pioggia, al vento, al freddo; E io anima trista non son sola, Ché tutte queste a simil pena stanno (Dante). Spesso, indicando il posto in cui si sta, si allude al compito, all’ufficio che si svolge: sta alla cassa; sta in cucina; sta al timone; sta all’ufficio delle ipoteche; e così s. di sentinella, di guardia; s. al comando, ecc.
    Merci, Olaszinho. Là c'est clair comme de l'eau de roche. Il va falloir que j'apprenne par coeur ces expressions avec "stare". Salutations! :)
     

    Angelo di fuoco

    Senior Member
    Russian & German (GER) bilingual
    Ti prego che mi dia le chiavi

    This sounds odd in contemporary Italian.

    I know it's odd, but it's still possible... However, if you you take the courtesy form, you have "La prego mi dia le chiavi".

    Mai sono stato in Portogallo.

    True, but this is not the normal position of mai in Italian, you example sounds rather emphatic.

    I know.

    Also possible in Spanish: en casa mía.

    I don't know whether this form is common and widespread in Spanish.....

    It's common, but it's emphatic: you stress mía.

    Quando andrò a Roma vedrò il Papa
    Cuando vaya a Roma veré al papa
    The congiuntivo in temporal clauses with reference to the future was possible in Italian as late as in the 19th century. However, the preference for one mood over another once again has nothing to do with syntax (word order) in a sentence.

    I was not only referring to the use of the subjective but also to the personal accusative "a" in Spanish.

    I addressed this point in another example of yours: the personal accusative exists in Napoletan.

    Anyway I have got lots of simple examples of differences between Spanish and Italian:

    Ce/ve ne sono molte
    Hay muchas....
    Ne ho lette tre
    He leìdo tres and so on

    There you have a point, as there's no particle corresponding to the Italian ne and the French & Catalan en.

    Last not least, syntax does include verb tenses and their use.
    Verb tenses and their use are on the border to morphology & semantics.
     
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