I recommend you take/to take

Hello forummates!

I have come across this phrase in a english grammar exercise:
"I recommend you take a tour through the desert".
And I wonder if it shouldn`t be:
"I recommend you to take a tour through the dessert".
Or is it that we can use both of them?. Then what would be the difference?.

Thank you very much in advance!.

 
  • Masood

    Senior Member
    British English
    Hello forummates!

    I have come across this phrase in a english grammar exercise:
    "I recommend you take a tour through the desert".
    And I wonder if it shouldn`t be:
    "I recommend you to take a tour through the dessert".
    Or is it that we can use both of them?. Then what would be the difference?.

    Thank you very much in advance!.

    Hola

    La primera frase significa:
    "Te recomiendo que hagas una visita del desierto."

    mientras la segunda significa:
    "Te recomiendo que hagas una visita del postre."
     
    Last edited:
    Thank you both of you. I am sorry, I misspelt the second phrase(the word desert):
    "I recommend you to take a tour through the desert".
    My question was meant for knowing whether we must use to after you or not. I mean, whether we should write "recommend you to take.." or "recommend you take".

    Thanks again!.
    P.S. I have just seen your post, Roanheads, I am going to have a look.
    SAludos. Best regards!.
     

    k-in-sc

    Senior Member
    U.S. English
    Saying ''I recommend you to take" makes ''you'' the direct object of ''recommend,'' which makes no sense here. You could say ''I'll recommend you for a promotion at work," but that is a different meaning.
    What you may not be able to tell here is that "take" is subjunctive. You can see it better with a different verb: ''I recommend you be careful," and by putting in the understood "that": ''I recommend (that) you go/do/be/take/etc."
     

    zetem

    Senior Member
    Canada, English
    (1) "I recommend you take a tour through the desert." A complete sentence would be "I recommend (that) you (should) take a tour through the desert." These omissions are allowed, especially in informal English and are more common in the US. This is the present subjunctive, which I think you will use in Spanish too for this sentence. In BE, especially informal BE, the construction with an indicative verb, instead of the subjunctive structure) is allowed end often used. "I recommend you to take a tour through the desert." There is long list of verbs for which this rule applies. If you insist on what is correct or incorrect, use the subjunctive form in this case. I hope this helps. Regards.
     
    Thank you so much!.

    To me it is no easy to understand such construction(as present subjuntive) since with the verb "to want" when using the subjuntive we use "to".
    For instance:
    "I want you to buy that coat", we are using the subjuntive but also "to".
    And I understand from what you say, Zetem, that when using the subjuntive with the verb "to recommend" we usually(or in a formal english) not use "to". For instance:
    "I recommend (that)you take a tour through the desert".
    So with this logic, why don`t we say " I want (that)you buy the coat", just like that, without "to"?.

    Thank you again!
    Regards!.
     

    k-in-sc

    Senior Member
    U.S. English
    "I want you to buy that coat" is not in the subjunctive (although the normal way to say it in Spanish would use the subjunctive).
    "To buy that coat" is an infinitive phrase and "you" is its actor or "subject."

    Here's an explanation from http://owl.english.purdue.edu/owl/resource/627/03/
    Everyone wanted Carol to be the captain of the team.
    The infinitive phrase functions as the direct object of the verb wanted.
    Carol (actor or "subject" of infinitive phrase)
    to be (infinitive)
    the captain (subject complement for Carol, via state of being expressed in infinitive)
    of the team (prepositional phrase as adjective)

    Keep in mind that English generally avoids the subjunctive in favor of the infinitive, except in certain constructions.
     
    "I recommend you take a tour through the desert." A complete sentence would be "I recommend (that) you (should) take a tour through the desert." These omissions are allowed, especially in informal English and are more common in the US. This is the present subjunctive.

    I took this from Zetem.

    I expressed myself quite bad. I have understood from what k-in-sc and zetem have said that the sentence, " I recommend you take a tour..." is present subjuntivo. I made the mistake to write it with "to". Anyway, what I wanted to say is that to me the sentences, " I want you to buy a coat" and " I recommend you take a tour" confuse me as it seems to me, at first view, that both phrases should have the same estructure.
    Isn`t there a direct object in both cases(you)?.
    Why, have I to use "to" in the blue phrase and not in the red one?. This is what I don`t understand.

    P.S: I will have a look to your link K-in-sc, it seems to require long time.

    Again, thank you so much.
     

    zetem

    Senior Member
    Canada, English
    "I want you to buy a coat" and " I recommend you take a tour.." This should not be confusing if you accept the fact that certain verbs in Spanish require the subjunctive, but in English some do not, the others can go both with the indicative or subjunctive (more often in BE than in AmE, while some others require subjunctives. The verb "want" goes always with the indicative (want to). The subjunctive is not popular in English and there is a growing tendency to use the indicative instead. Examples:
    (BE): I prefer her to drive; (AmE): I prefer that she drive. [not *that she drives(indicative); drive = subjunctive].
    (BE): I recommended you to be the candidate; (AmE) I recommended that you be the candidate.
    In BE, "should" is often used for subjunctives, whlle in AmE "should" is normally omitted.
    (BE): I insisted that he should be responsible for the accident; (AmE):
    I insisted that he be responsible for the accident.
    (BE): I demand that she should leave the meeting (subjunctive) but also: I demand that she leaves the meeting (indicative!); (AmE): I demand that she leave the meeting)

    I hope that this is not as complicated as it seems, but there is nothing simple about the use subjunctives in English. Regards.



     
    "I want you to buy a coat" and " I recommend you take a tour.." This should not be confusing if you accept the fact that certain verbs in Spanish require the subjunctive, but in English some do not, the others can go both with the indicative or subjunctive (more often in BE than in AmE, while some others require subjunctives. The verb "want" goes always with the indicative (want to). The subjunctive is not popular in English and there is a growing tendency to use the indicative instead. Examples:
    (BE): I prefer her to drive; (AmE): I prefer that she drive. [not *that she drives(indicative); drive = subjunctive].
    (BE): I recommended you to be the candidate; (AmE) I recommended that you be the candidate.
    In BE, "should" is often used for subjunctives, whlle in AmE "should" is normally omitted.
    (BE): I insisted that he should be responsible for the accident; (AmE):
    I insisted that he be responsible for the accident.
    (BE): I demand that she should leave the meeting (subjunctive) but also: I demand that she leaves the meeting (indicative!); (AmE): I demand that she leave the meeting)

    I hope that this is not as complicated as it seems, but there is nothing simple about the use subjunctives in English. Regards.




    Very good explanation zetem, I thank you so much.

    I start to understand the differences with the subjuntive in English and Spanish.

    So if I have understood properly your explanation, I think I could/should say:

    I prefered (that) she drive.(Ame)
    We recommended(that) Jhon visit his parents.(Ame)
    He insisted(that)you(should)be here at that time.(B.E)

    And I am thinking that one thing that confused me about the next sentence: " I recommend you take a tour through the desert" is that we should better say: " Recomiendo que hagas un viaje por el desierto" instead of " Te recomiendo que..."

    If you are talking to Frank you could say:
    "I recommend she take a tour through the desert", but if you are talking directly to her, couldn`t you say?:
    "I recommend to you that you take a tour through the dessert".

    Well, I realize that I am looping the loop concerning the subjuntive with the last questions.

    Thank you so much again. Best regards!
     

    zetem

    Senior Member
    Canada, English
    *I recommend to you that you take a tour through the desert* is wrong. You should use either the indicative form with "recommend you to" and without "that" (the word "that" forces the use of the subjunctive), or the subjunctive form (recommend that you), but not both in the same sentence. Learn first the full grammatical construction in the subjunctive "I recommend (that) you (should) take a tour through the desert". Then omit "should" if you want to sound more American, and even "that", but keep in mind that it is still the subjunctive, and the omitted words could make this less obvious. The verb recommend can be used both with the indicative or the subjunctive form, with the same meaning.
     

    k-in-sc

    Senior Member
    U.S. English
    "I recommend to you that you take a tour through the desert" is perfectly correct, although somewhat wordy.
    What I would not recommend you say is "recommend you to," which I find indefensible.
    :)
     

    PinkCream69

    Senior Member
    Chile - Español
    "I want you to buy a coat" and " I recommend you take a tour.." This should not be confusing if you accept the fact that certain verbs in Spanish require the subjunctive, but in English some do not, the others can go both with the indicative or subjunctive (more often in BE than in AmE, while some others require subjunctives. The verb "want" goes always with the indicative (want to). The subjunctive is not popular in English and there is a growing tendency to use the indicative instead. Examples:
    (BE): I prefer her to drive; (AmE): I prefer that she drive. [not *that she drives(indicative); drive = subjunctive].
    (BE): I recommended you to be the candidate; (AmE) I recommended that you be the candidate.
    In BE, "should" is often used for subjunctives, whlle in AmE "should" is normally omitted.
    (BE): I insisted that he should be responsible for the accident; (AmE):
    I insisted that he be responsible for the accident.
    (BE): I demand that she should leave the meeting (subjunctive) but also: I demand that she leaves the meeting (indicative!); (AmE): I demand that she leave the meeting)

    I hope that this is not as complicated as it seems, but there is nothing simple about the use subjunctives in English. Regards.




    Can anybody tell me a source to verify this is correct? I also always thought that "I prefer her to drive" was more correct that "I prefer that she drive", but in some little websites I have found it seems they only show the latter form, perhaps because they are american, but I would really like to see a source to confirm this is correct please.

    Thanks in advance.
     

    Wackford Squeers

    New Member
    English - U.S.
    Can anybody tell me a source to verify this is correct? I also always thought that "I prefer her to drive" was more correct that "I prefer that she drive", but in some little websites I have found it seems they only show the latter form, perhaps because they are american, but I would really like to see a source to confirm this is correct please.

    Thanks in advance.

    I can't confirm which is "more correct" but I can confirm that what you have quoted in red is indeed the proper form of the subjunctive in English. Additionally, you'll be fine using both in conversation!
     

    SevenDays

    Senior Member
    Spanish/AE
    Can anybody tell me a source to verify this is correct? I also always thought that "I prefer her to drive" was more correct that "I prefer that she drive", but in some little websites I have found it seems they only show the latter form, perhaps because they are american, but I would really like to see a source to confirm this is correct please.

    Thanks in advance.

    If you say I prefer her to drive, then "her to drive" becomes the direct object. ("Her" must function as the subject of "to drive," which is why "her" alone can't be the direct object of "prefer.") But, because of the nature of "prefer," I prefer her to drive doesn't really work. "Prefer" speaks to a choice ("I prefer this to that") and it is used in comparative constructions. That means "to" functions as a preposition and not as part of the infinitive. The comparison must be of equal grammatical form: I prefer her to him; I prefer tea to coffee; I prefer singing to dancing; I prefer a nice day in the park to a bad day at the office. You can use "over" instead of "to:" I prefer singing over dancing. You can make a comparison involving two infinitives, in which case "rather than" is added: I prefer to sing rather than (to) play.
    "Prefer" can take a that-clause, which becomes the direct object: I prefer that she drive. In this case, the comparison is implicit
    if I find a site that talks about this, I'll post it.
    Cheers
     

    PinkCream69

    Senior Member
    Chile - Español
    If you say I prefer her to drive, then "her to drive" becomes the direct object. ("Her" must function as the subject of "to drive," which is why "her" alone can't be the direct object of "prefer.") But, because of the nature of "prefer," I prefer her to drive doesn't really work. "Prefer" speaks to a choice ("I prefer this to that") and it is used in comparative constructions. That means "to" functions as a preposition and not as part of the infinitive. The comparison must be of equal grammatical form: I prefer her to him; I prefer tea to coffee; I prefer singing to dancing; I prefer a nice day in the park to a bad day at the office. You can use "over" instead of "to:" I prefer singing over dancing. You can make a comparison involving two infinitives, in which case "rather than" is added: I prefer to sing rather than (to) play.
    "Prefer" can take a that-clause, which becomes the direct object: I prefer that she drive. In this case, the comparison is implicit
    if I find a site that talks about this, I'll post it.
    Cheers

    Thank you SevenDays. :)

    What about in a context like this:

    I prefer HER to drive, because HE is too scatterbrained.

    Would that use be incorrect as well??
     

    SevenDays

    Senior Member
    Spanish/AE
    Thank you SevenDays. :)

    What about in a context like this:

    I prefer HER to drive, because HE is too scatterbrained.

    Would that use be incorrect as well??

    Hello
    Thanks for including a sentence; it helps to think about this more clearly. Is it incorrect? Well, when it comes to grammar, some things are not black and white. Traditional grammar wouldn't recognize "her" as the direct object of "prefer" because "her" is the subject of "to drive;" that is, "her"' can't perform two syntactic functions (object and subject). Yet some grammars (such as transformational or generative) would argue that the object of "prefer" is "her to drive" (all of that, not just "her"). This is known as a sentential object because the object is, in fact, a sentence; it has a subject ("her") and a predicate ("to drive"). Others prefer the term atypical object. If you agree with the concepts of sentential object and atypical object, then I prefer her to drive, because he is too scatterbrained is fine. Prefer usually refers to a preferance, a choice, but, in this case, you would also argue that this sentence doesn't state a syntactic preferance (although there is a semantic choice: "her" over "him"). Syntactically, because he is too scatterbrained functions as an adjunct (it simply presents additional information) to the main clause I prefer her to drive.

    In you opt for a more traditional approach to grammar, then this sentence would make you rather unhappy. You would likely go with I prefer that she drive/I prefer that she drives/I prefer that she should drive, because he is too scatterbrained.

    Hope I'm not confusing you...
    Cheers
     

    piatnizkisaurus

    Senior Member
    argentina español
    *I recommend to you that you take a tour through the desert* is wrong. You should use either the indicative form with "recommend you to" and without "that" (the word "that" forces the use of the subjunctive), or the subjunctive form (recommend that you), but not both in the same sentence. Learn first the full grammatical construction in the subjunctive "I recommend (that) you (should) take a tour through the desert". Then omit "should" if you want to sound more American, and even "that", but keep in mind that it is still the subjunctive, and the omitted words could make this less obvious. The verb recommend can be used both with the indicative or the subjunctive form, with the same meaning.
    Wow, I have to say I'm really greatful for your explanation. I was kinda confused about the use of "recommend" too, but your explanation really made it look easy. Thanks.
     

    k-in-sc

    Senior Member
    U.S. English
    I recommend that you stay away from the subjunctive (= It would be best to avoid the subjunctive) by recommending nouns ("I recommend the desert tour") or rephrasing with a verb other than "recommend" ("The tour of the desert is really good. You would love it.").
     

    Thomas Veil

    Senior Member
    English - USA
    You can also say "I recommend taking a desert tour" (but not "I want taking a desert tour").

    Can anybody tell me a source to verify this is correct? I also always thought that "I prefer her to drive" was more correct that "I prefer that she drive", but in some little websites I have found it seems they only show the latter form, perhaps because they are american, but I would really like to see a source to confirm this is correct please.

    Thanks in advance.
    "I prefer her to drive rather than he drive" doesn't sound right to me, but "I prefer her driving" or "I prefer her as driver" do. If you were to use "I prefer her to drive", I would expect it to be in a sentence such as"I prefer her to drive rather than walk".

    (BE): I recommended you to be the candidate; (AmE) I recommended that you be the candidate.
    The first would be used in AmE only if one were recommending to someone else that you be a candidate.

    In BE, "should" is often used for subjunctives, whlle in AmE "should" is normally omitted.
    (BE): I insisted that he should be responsible for the accident; (AmE):
    "Should" is, at best, redundant, just as "Do you want I should come?" is redundant (either "Should I come?" and "Do you want me to come?" would be enough to solicit an opinion). In the situation quoted above, "should" is worse than redundant, since it gives a new meaning. "Should" , at least in AmE, does not indicated that the verb is subjunctive; rather, it indicates that one is discussing what is proper. To "insist" can mean either making a forceful declaration or demanding an action. "I insisted that he should be responsible for the accident" means "I declared forcefully that the proper situation was that he be responsible for the accident". "I insisted that he be responsible for the accident" means "I demanded that he be responsible for the accident".

    (BE): I demand that she should leave the meeting (subjunctive) but also: I demand that she leaves the meeting (indicative!); (AmE): I demand that she leave the meeting)
    If the verb were "insist" rather than "demand". the BE version would mean something very different to an AmE speaker. "I insisted that she leaves the meeting" means "I asserted forcefully that she leaves the meeting", not "I demanded that she leave the meeting".
     

    Aristocles56

    Member
    Español. España
    Some verbs accept be followed by an infinitive (with to).Ex agree.
    Some verbs accept be followed by an -ing form. Ex admit.
    Etc
    The verbs advise, allow, permit, forbid and recommend:
    1) without object, then...followed by an-ing form
    Ex I recommend reading
    2) with object, then...followed by infinitive (with to).
    Ex I recommend you to buy this car.
    3) A construction with that is also possible. And in this case that is sometimes dropped
     

    juan2937

    Banned
    Spanish
    Can anybody tell me a source to verify this is correct? I also always thought that "I prefer her to drive" was more correct that "I prefer that she drive", but in some little websites I have found it seems they only show the latter form, perhaps because they are american, but I would really like to see a source to confirm this is correct please.
    Thanks in advance.

    I prefer to drive rather than travel by train
    Ana prefers to live in the country rather than in a city
    I prefer driving to travelling by train
    I prefer this coat to the coat you were wearing yesterday
    (Unit 58, letter A 'English Grammar in Use' , Raymond Murphy)
    where would you recommend me to go for my holidays?
    I wouldn't recommend anybody to stay in that hotel
    Unit 54 letter C same author as above.
     
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    Marian78

    Senior Member
    Spanish -Spain
    I´m totally mixed up... In my textbook I have:

    1)Recommend + v ING. --> E.g I recommend doing a double decker bus tour as the best way to see London.

    Does it mean that "recommend" is followed by ING only to express general recommendation without mentioning enybody in particular???

    2) What about... I recommend you to take a tour..." --> would it be with o without "to" ?
     

    k-in-sc

    Senior Member
    U.S. English
    I don't know what's considered acceptable in the land of double-decker buses, but here in the U.S. the subjunctive option ("I recommend you take") sounds the most formal. They all work equally well in either impersonal (generic "you") or specific contexts.
    I recommend taking a bus tour :tick:
    I recommend you take a bus tour :tick:
    I recommend a bus tour :tick:
    I recommend you to take a bus tour :cross:
     

    chileno

    Senior Member
    Castellano - Chile
    Hello forummates!

    I have come across this phrase in a english grammar exercise:
    "I recommend you take a tour through the desert".
    And I wonder if it shouldn`t be:
    "I recommend you to take a tour through the dessert".
    Or is it that we can use both of them?. Then what would be the difference?.

    Thank you very much in advance!.

    I recommend you take a tour through the desert = Te recomiendo que tomee un tour a través del desierto

    I recommend you to take/taking a tour... = Te recomiendo tomar un tour...

    I don't know what's considered acceptable in the land of double-decker buses, but here in the U.S. the subjunctive option ("I recommend you take") sounds the most formal. They all work equally well in either impersonal (generic "you") or specific contexts.
    I recommend taking a bus tour :tick:
    I recommend you take a bus tour :tick:
    I recommend a bus tour :tick:
    I recommend you to take a bus tour :cross:

    Why is the last one wrong?
     

    Hector9

    Senior Member
    Why would you need to ask why something is not said a particular way? "Because that's not the way we say it"

    I got what you meant, now I have a question. Would it be okay in the context of hiring a new person for a position?

    Let's suppose that you're talking to your boss and you say: "I recommend Hector to be part of the company, he's a very talented and hard working-person"

    Would it be correct to use it like that?

    Thanks in advance.
     

    S.V.

    Senior Member
    Español, México
    Hm, here two people from the UK call it 'awkward' and :tick:. And over here someone from Ireland says it sounds ancient. :D

    But of course it seems all the Americans agree with K-in-sc.
     

    Marian78

    Senior Member
    Spanish -Spain
    haha I find really funny that even for native speakers it is confusing. This is why we say that languages are not an exact science, and continously changing, even more from one point to another of the planet. I think that the winner option is :

    I recommend taking a bus tour :tick:
    I recommend you take a bus tour :tick:
    I recommend a bus tour :tick:
    I recommend you to take a bus tour :cross:

    ;)
     

    SevenDays

    Senior Member
    Spanish/AE
    For "Te recomiendo que tomes un tour en bus," English uses the mandative subjunctive, which uses that plus the bare infinitive:
    I recommend that you take a bus tour
    Notice how odd it would sound if you add "to""
    I recommend that you to take a bus tour
    So, if you omit "that," use the bare infinitive:
    I recommend you take a bus tour
    For "Te recomiendo tomar," Engish goes with -ing: I recommend taking a bus tour (where it's understood that the subject of "taking" is "you" and not "I").

    I recommend you to take a bus tour changes things; now the recommendation is "you" (as if there's a group of people and I recommend "you" and not "someone else" to take a bus tour). In this construction, there's no "that" omitted. In Spanish, more or less: Te recomiendo a ti para que tomes un tour en bus.
     

    cubaMania

    Senior Member
    I recommend taking a bus tour :tick:
    I recommend you take a bus tour :tick:
    I recommend a bus tour :tick:
    I recommend you to take a bus tour :cross:

    Why is the last one wrong?
    chileno, as a native speaker of American English, I explain it this way:
    The verb "to recommend" is transitive. We recommend something (direct object) to someone (indirect object).

    I recommended you for the position of bus driver.:tick: You (direct object) are being recommended to someone else* (indirect object).
    I recommend (to you) that you accept the job.:tick: Accepting the job (direct object) is being recommended to you (indirect object).
    I recommend you to accept the position.:cross: No, I'm not recommending you to someone, I'm recommending to you that you accept the job.

    Te recomiendo (a tí) que...
    I recommend (to you) that...

    *to the bus company
     
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    Marian78

    Senior Member
    Spanish -Spain
    Now, a nwew question come to my mind... with "that", do I need to say "to you" or just "you"?:

    1) I recommend that you take a bus tour.
    2) I recommend to you that you take a bus tour.
     

    SevenDays

    Senior Member
    Spanish/AE
    Now, a nwew question come to my mind... with "that", do I need to say "to you" or just "you"?:

    1) I recommend that you take a bus tour.
    2) I recommend to you that you take a bus tour.

    La primera está bien; la segunda no está mal.
    Vamos a ver. Según lo que quieres decir (con "that"), el verbo "recommend" tiene dos argumentos: un argumento toma la forma de "sujeto;" el otro, la estructura "that-clause:" I recommend that you take a bus tour. Esto equivale a "Te recomiendo que tomes un tour en bus". Es decir, tu primera frase tiene todo en su lugar. Ahora bien, la segunda (con "to you") no está mal, en el sentido de que "to you" no es un "argumento" del verbo, y por lo tanto se puede eliminar, pues la persona que se indica en "to you" ya aparece dentro de la "that-clause."
     

    Forero

    Senior Member
    "I recommend you to take a bus tour" is valid grammatically (similar to "I recommend you for taking a bus tour"), but it means "I recommend you as the person to take a bus tour".

    At least in AmE, if you mean "I recommend (that) you take a bus tour" (recommending a tour for you, not you for a tour), don't add a "to".
     

    IMD90

    Banned
    Español/Colombia
    Hello forummates!

    I have come across this phrase in a english grammar exercise:
    "I recommend you take a tour through the desert".
    And I wonder if it shouldn`t be:
    "I recommend you to take a tour through the dessert".
    Or is it that we can use both of them?. Then what would be the difference?.

    Thank you very much in advance!.
    I recommed (that) you take a tour...subjunctive correct.
    I ecommend you to take a tour... ( object+infinitive) other verbs, command, comel, encourage, invite,need, oblige, want, watn, wish, etc).
     

    Mattterhorn

    Senior Member
    Spanish
    I seem to be coming across sentences with recommend + to infiinitive now and again. I‘ve just seen this one:
    “We strongly recommend you to use VPN now to make yourself anonymous”
    You can read it when you download a film with the app Popcorn Time.
    After re-reading all your explanations I must conclude that it is incorrect...
     

    Forero

    Senior Member
    I seem to be coming across sentences with recommend + to infiinitive now and again. I‘ve just seen this one:
    “We strongly recommend you to use VPN now to make yourself anonymous”
    You can read it when you download a film with the app Popcorn Time.
    After re-reading all your explanations I must conclude that it is incorrect...
    It is incorrect for American English.
     
    I seem to be coming across sentences with recommend + to infiinitive now and again. I‘ve just seen this one:
    “We strongly recommend you to use VPN now to make yourself anonymous”
    You can read it when you download a film with the app Popcorn Time.
    After re-reading all your explanations I must conclude that it is incorrect...
    We strongly recommend (that) you use... (subjunctive)
    We strongly recommend you to use sounds like baby talk to me. Is the app created by non-native English speakers?
     
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