Hindi, Urdu: jab tak ki

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Pokeflute

Member
English - American
I've started reading Harry Potter and the Sorcerer's Stone (harii pauTar aur paaras patthar) and I've noticed that often times words like "jab" will have a "ki" following them.

For example:
vo unki baat par tab tak yaqiin nahin karne vaaliN, jab tak ki DambalDor khud na keh deN ki ye sac thhaa
or:
jab tak ki vo ise jhelne ke liye taiyaar na ho jaaye

Looking these up in the dictionary just tells me that "jab ki" is a stylistic variant of "jab". Are the above phrases identical with "jab tak"? Do forms such as "jab ki", "jab se ki", and "jabhi ki" also exist?
 
  • Alfaaz

    Senior Member
    English
    Pokeflute said:
    Are the above phrases identical with "jab tak"?
    Relevant thread: Urdu: وہ دن کہ جس کا وعدہ ہے
    Pokeflute said:
    Do forms such as "jab ki", "jab se ki", and "jabhi ki" also exist?
    jab-keh does exist as well as the following:
    کہ
    ۲۰ ، مرکب کلمے میں بطور جزو آخر ، بس ، بل ، جب ، جو، چوں، کیوں وغیرہ کے ساتھ
    keh
    20. murakkab kalime meN ba-taur juzw-e-aaxir - bas, bal, jab, jo, chuuN, kyuuN, waGhairah ke saath
     

    littlepond

    Senior Member
    Hindi
    "jab tak ki" and "jab ki" have different meanings. The first says "until" or "unless"; the second often introduces a contradictory antecedent situation.
     

    Qureshpor

    Senior Member
    Panjabi, Urdu پنجابی، اردو
    I've started reading Harry Potter and the Sorcerer's Stone (harii pauTar aur paaras patthar) and I've noticed that often times words like "jab" will have a "ki" following them.

    For example:
    vo unki baat par tab tak yaqiin nahin karne vaaliN, jab tak ki DambalDor khud na keh deN ki ye sac thhaa
    or:
    jab tak ki vo ise jhelne ke liye taiyaar na ho jaaye

    Looking these up in the dictionary just tells me that "jab ki" is a stylistic variant of "jab". Are the above phrases identical with "jab tak"? Do forms such as "jab ki", "jab se ki", and "jabhi ki" also exist?
    @Pokeflute. In your highlighted sentences "kih" can be omitted without any loss of meaning.

    "jab kih" on the other hand implies "while".

    A fuller discussion of this topic can be found in this thread.

    Urdu: Various words for "until"
     

    Qureshpor

    Senior Member
    Panjabi, Urdu پنجابی، اردو
    Could you check back with the text please? I find this feature quite perplexing. Thanks a lot.
    Is this request addressed to me, marrish SaaHib.

    "vo unki baat par tab tak yaqiin nahin karne vaaliN, jab tak ki DambalDor khud na keh deN ki ye sach thaa".

    This can be rephrased as:

    "vo unki baat par tab tak yaqiin nahin karne vaalii haiN, jab tak ki DambalDor khud na keh deN ki ye sac thaa"

    Does this help?

    Were you thinking that we should have "karne vaaliyaaN"?
     

    Pokeflute

    Member
    English - American
    Thank you everyone!

    Could you check back with the text please? I find this feature quite perplexing.
    Thanks a lot.
    Just double checked, and this is what is written. For context, the subject is Professor McGonagall (an older woman).

    My guess (as Quereshpor said) is that "nahiN karne vaali haiN" became "nahiN karne vaaliN" (like how "vo laRkiyaaN nahiN khaati haiN" becomes "vo laRkiyaaN nahiN khaatiN"). But I'm still learning, so this is all speculation on my part.

    FWIW the original text (incase I've transcribed it wrong) is वे उनकी बात पर तब तक नहीं यक़ीन करने वालीं, जब तक कि डम्बल्डोर ख़ुद न कह दें कि यह सच था

    "jab tak ki" and "jab ki" have different meanings. The first says "until" or "unless"; the second often introduces a contradictory antecedent situation.
    Would the following sentence be grammatical?

    raam aa gayaa jab ki sushmita ab tak nahin aai hai

    (Ram has arrived, whereas Sushmita hasn't come yet)
     
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    marrish

    Senior Member
    اُردو Urdu
    Is this request addressed to me, marrish SaaHib.
    I'm sorry for the counter-intuitive way I placed the quote, but I thank you for sharing your reading.
    Just double checked, and this is what is written. For context, the subject is Professor McGonagall (an older woman).

    My guess (as Quereshpor said) is that "nahiN karne vaali haiN" became "nahiN karne vaaliN" (like how "vo laRkiyaaN nahiN khaati haiN" becomes "vo laRkiyaaN nahiN khaatiN"). But I'm still learning, so this is all speculation on my part.

    FWIW the original text (incase I've transcribed it wrong) is वे उनकी बात पर तब तक नहीं यक़ीन करने वालीं, जब तक कि डम्बल्डोर ख़ुद न कह दें कि यह सच था
    Thank you again for the trouble, I tend to agree with both your and Qureshpor's explanation, it seems similar to this process which overreaches the word boundaries; but my point being that in (contemporary) Urdu (though I did come across it in older forms of the language), this grammatical feature does not extend to vaalii. My experience with Hindi has been till date the same, that is to say vaalii doesn't occur in a f.pl. form vaaliiN/ or vaaliyaaN ;-) < Qureshpor SaaHib, and remains unchanged.
    raam aa gayaa jab ki sushmita ab tak nahin aai hai

    (Ram has arrived, whereas Sushmita hasn't come yet)
    As far as the use of jab ki /U. jabkih/ goes your sentence and translation are spot on.
    Since the copula hai is usually dropped at the end of this sort of negative sentences, it's better to do away with it or else, put it after raam aa gayaa instead.
     
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    Qureshpor

    Senior Member
    Panjabi, Urdu پنجابی، اردو
    marrish SaaHib, please do listen to the song "ko'ii Hasiinah jab ruuTh jaatii hai..." even though it is not sung by Muhammad Rafi!:) You will hear "TaaNge-vaaliyaaN".
     

    desi4life

    Senior Member
    English
    I'm sorry for the counter-intuitive way I placed the quote, but I thank you for sharing your reading.
    Thank you again for the trouble, I tend to agree with both your and Qureshpor's explanation, it seems similar to this process which overreaches the word boundaries; but my point being that in (contemporary) Urdu (though I did come across it in older forms of the language), this grammatical feature does not extend to vaalii. My experience with Hindi has been till date the same, that is to say vaalii doesn't occur in a f.pl. form vaaliiN/ or vaaliyaaN ;-) < Qureshpor SaaHib, and remains unchanged.

    As far as the use of jab ki /U. jabkih/ goes your sentence and translation are spot on.
    Since the copula hai is usually dropped at the end of this sort of negative sentences, it's better to do away with it or else, put it after raam aa gayaa instead.
    In Hindi, the feminine plural is used per this dictionary entry: vaalaa.
     

    marrish

    Senior Member
    اُردو Urdu
    marrish SaaHib, please do listen to the song "ko'ii Hasiinah jab ruuTh jaatii hai..." even though it is not sung by Muhammad Rafi!:) You will hear "TaaNge-vaaliyaaN".
    I have listened to this song! Of course you were right to suggest that I might have had the regular f. pl. vaaliyaaN in mind when I read vaaliiN but I would analyse Taange vaaliyaaN as a noun: TaaNge vaaliyaaN hotii haiN naxre vaaliyaaN
     

    marrish

    Senior Member
    اُردو Urdu
    ve ... yaqiin nahiiN karne vaaliiN jab tak ki...
    In Hindi, the feminine plural is used per this dictionary entry: vaalaa.
    I understand it, I know that feminine plural does exist, and it ends in -iyaaN, but I think this form can rather be used as a sentence subject / feminine animated noun, and there is vaaliyoN too in the oblique ; but "vaaliiN" cannot. Likewise vaaliyaaN doesn't sound any good in Prof. DombalDor, ve yaqiin nahiiN karne vaaliiyaaN jab tak kih ..., does it?
     
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    Qureshpor

    Senior Member
    Panjabi, Urdu پنجابی، اردو
    ve ... yaqiin nahiiN karne vaaliiN jab tak ki...

    I understand it, I know that feminine plural does exist, and it ends in -iyaaN, but I think this form can rather be used as a sentence subject / feminine animated noun, and there is vaaliyoN too in the oblique ; but "vaaliiN" cannot. Likewise vaaliyaaN doesn't sound any good in Prof. DombalDor, ve yaqiin nahiiN karne vaaliiyaaN jab tak kih ..., does it?
    marrish SaaHib, see this thread.

    Hindi-Urdu:Congress-waalii ( meaning?)

    I also feel "vaaliiN" is dodgy, to say the least.

    I agree with you that "vaaliyaaN" does not sound right. This is because the subject is singular and therefore "vaaliyaaN" would not be right any way.

    What is being attempted in the use of "vaaliiN" is to provide polite address for the singular subject.

    "vo unki baat par tab tak yaqiin nahin karne vaaliN ....."

    Perhaps a way out may be to say...

    "vuh un kii baat par yaqiin nahiiN kareN gii....
     
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