Grenze , grens , granica , граница..

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Włoskipolak 72

Member
Polish
Hello

Lately I have discoverd the origin of the noun border , from Proto-Slavic granica.
I was quite surprised because I have always imagined that origin of noun granica , was borrowed from the German ''Grenze '' ! :rolleyes:


Grenze f. ‘Linie, die zwei Staaten, Länder, Grundstücke oder andere Bereiche voneinander trennt’. Mhd. graniza, graenizen, greniz stammt aus altpoln. granica, grańca ‘Grenzzeichen, Grenzlinie’ (poln. granica) und wird auf der gesamten Länge des polnisch-deutschen Grenzgebietes entlehnt; vgl. die slaw. Entsprechungen russ. graníca (граница), tschech. hranice (zu deren Grundwörtern s. ↗Granne)

Limit f. ‘Line that separates two states, countries, properties or other areas from each other’. Mhd. graniza, graenizen, greniz comes from old pol. granica, grańca ‘Grenzzeichen, Grenzlinie’ (Polish granica) and is borrowed along the entire length of the Polish-German border area; see. the Slavic equivalents Russian graníca (граница), Czech hranice (for their basic words see ↗Granne)

DWDS – Digitales Wörterbuch der deutschen Sprache
 
  • ahvalj

    Senior Member
    Этимологический словарь славянских языков… Выпуск 7 (golvačь – gyžati) · ОН Трубачёв · 1980: 104–108 mentions the Slavic words with the following basic meanings across languages:
    • grana/granъ/granь “branch, twig, pole; border, verge, edge, corner; boundary mark; a kind of tree; etc.”
    • granatъ “branchy; angular; broad-shouldered”
    • granica “branch; a species of oak; boundary”
    • graniti (sę) “to branch out; to notch; to determine boundaries; to facet”
    • granivъ “orange; grayish-brown”.
    The root is suggested to have been *gʰrehₑ-, that is the same as in green/grün and grow.

    In Old Church Slavonic, граница/granica is attested with the meaning “branch, twig” (Словарь старославянского языка. Том 1. А – И · 2006: 433).

    For semantics, the Slavic *meďa “boundary” (from *medʰi̯os “middle”) corresponds to the Baltic *medi̯an “forest; tree” (Prussian median, Lithuanian medis, Latvian mežs), with apparently an opposite development.
     

    Mori.cze

    Senior Member
    Czech
    German Grenze is of Slavic origin (specifically Lusatian Sorbian I believe)
    This is not surprising as both languages coexisted for quite a long time and word exchange works both ways.
    There are also other German words of Slavic origin (I know of Peitsche/whip from Czech bič and Quark (dairy product) from Czech tvaroh)
     

    dihydrogen monoxide

    Senior Member
    Slovene, Serbo-Croat
    Этимологический словарь славянских языков… Выпуск 7 (golvačь – gyžati) · ОН Трубачёв · 1980: 104–108 mentions the Slavic words with the following basic meanings across languages:
    • grana/granъ/granь “branch, twig, pole; border, verge, edge, corner; boundary mark; a kind of tree; etc.”
    • granatъ “branchy; angular; broad-shouldered”
    • granica “branch; a species of oak; boundary”
    • graniti (sę) “to branch out; to notch; to determine boundaries; to facet”
    • granivъ “orange; grayish-brown”.
    The root is suggested to have been *gʰrehₑ-, that is the same as in green/grün and grow.

    In Old Church Slavonic, граница/granica is attested with the meaning “branch, twig” (Словарь старославянского языка. Том 1. А – И · 2006: 433).

    For semantics, the Slavic *meďa “boundary” (from *medʰi̯os “middle”) corresponds to the Baltic *medi̯an “forest; tree” (Prussian median, Lithuanian medis, Latvian mežs), with apparently an opposite development.
    Is it difficult to assume that if granica is a species of oak that grana is not a kind of tree but a species of oak?
    Wouldn't granica be little branch or twig?
    Is granivъ preserved in any Slavic language, I don't believe it is in BCS or Slovenian?
     

    ahvalj

    Senior Member
    Is it difficult to assume that if granica is a species of oak that grana is not a kind of tree but a species of oak?
    Wouldn't granica be little branch or twig?
    Gran- as a specific name may mean “oak“, but in principle it may be used for angular/sharp-edged/branched parts of other plants, like couch grass (not a tree), infructescence of chestnuts or hazelnuts, bunch of grapes, ear of barley. My impression is that the plants are named after the shape, not the opposite way after the oak (there are almost three pages of text under this lemma, I can't post it all here).
     

    Włoskipolak 72

    Member
    Polish
    Этимологический словарь славянских языков… Выпуск 7 (golvačь – gyžati) · ОН Трубачёв · 1980: 104–108 mentions the Slavic words with the following basic meanings across languages:
    • grana/granъ/granь “branch, twig, pole; border, verge, edge, corner; boundary mark; a kind of tree; etc.”
    • granatъ “branchy; angular; broad-shouldered”
    • granica “branch; a species of oak; boundary”
    • graniti (sę) “to branch out; to notch; to determine boundaries; to facet”
    • granivъ “orange; grayish-brown”.
    The root is suggested to have been *gʰrehₑ-, that is the same as in green/grün and grow.

    In Old Church Slavonic, граница/granica is attested with the meaning “branch, twig” (Словарь старославянского языка. Том 1. А – И · 2006: 433).

    For semantics, the Slavic *meďa “boundary” (from *medʰi̯os “middle”) corresponds to the Baltic *medi̯an “forest; tree” (Prussian median, Lithuanian medis, Latvian mežs), with apparently an opposite development.
    That's very interesting :
    • grana/granъ/granь “branch, twig, pole; border, verge, edge, corner; boundary mark; a kind of tree; etc.”
    In Polish we have fem. noun grań [ɡrãɲ], plur. granie ,
    - geol. geogr. grzbiet górski o bardzo stromych zboczach, zwykle wąski i skalisty ,( a mountain ridge with very steep slopes, usually narrow and rocky ")
    - ostre zetknięcie się ścian lub innych płaszczyzn, ( sharp contact between walls or other surfaces )
     

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    Demiurg

    Senior Member
    German
    In Polish we have fem. noun grań [ɡrãɲ], plur. granie ,
    - geol. geogr. grzbiet górski o bardzo stromych zboczach, zwykle wąski i skalisty ,( a mountain ridge with very steep slopes, usually narrow and rocky ")
    The German word for this is "Grat". DSWS relates it to Russian "грот" and Polish "grot":
    Grat m. ‘schmaler Bergrücken, Höhenbereich im Bergland’, mhd. mnd. grāt ‘Rückgrat, Bergrücken, Spitze, Stachel, Fischgräte’ (wozu auch nhd. ↗Gräte, s. d.), mnl. graet, nl. graat ‘Gräte’ sind vielleicht wie schwundstufiges russ. (älter) grot (грот) ‘Wurfspieß’, poln. grot, tschech. hrot ‘Spitze’ mit Dentalsuffix im Sinne von ‘Spitzes, Hervorstechendes’ zur Wurzel ie. *gher(ə)- ‘hervorstechen’ (von Pflanzentrieben, Stacheln, Borsten, Erderhebungen, Kanten) gebildet, wobei die germ. Formen hochstufiges und langvokalisches ie. *ghrē-, die slaw. hingegen reduziertes *ghrə- voraussetzen. Zur gleichen Wurzel gehören ↗Granne, ↗Gras, ↗grün (s. d.).
     
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