A melléknévi kiemelőjel (-bb) -IK

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franknagy

Senior Member
I think that we can generalize the topic "kisebbik, nagyobbik".
The addition of "-k" to the comparative degree to express "The more ... one" of 2 persons or object is a Hungarian speciality.

I start here a new aspect.
Which Hungarian adjectives can take this -ik after the sign of comparative degree -bb?

No problem:
Nem emlékszem, hogy Stan volt-e kövérebbik, és Pan a soványabbik, vagy fordítva.
I do not remember whether Stan was the fatter one and Pan the thinner one, or on the contrary.

The following examples are hurting ny ears:
sunyibbik, őszintébbik = the more sneaky one, the more sincere one.

I have doubts with the composite adjectives where I do not even know where to put the -bb:

Nagypofájú -> nagyobb pofájú / nagypofájúbb -> nagyobbik pofájú / nagypofájúbbik?
The one having bigger cheek.
 
  • Encolpius

    Senior Member
    Hungarian
    Very interesting topic indeed. I must agree with you it is a Hungarian rarity. Something for C2-students. Even the best Hungarian grammar written in English does not mention it.
    - Vegyél fel egy szebb ruhát.
    - Vedd fel a szebbik ruhádat.

    And I think you can use any word, but some are used more frequently (szebbik, jobbik, nagyobbik, kisebbik, hosszabbik - the most common words).
    ...
     
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    gorilla

    Member
    Hungarian - Hungary
    I guess, we are simply used to a handful of adjectives with this usage and anything else sounds unusual, but they are less unusual if at least the ending is usual (-abbik/-ebbik/-obbik).

    Therefore the adjectives ending in vowels sound most strange with the -ik version (resulting in endings like -ibbik, -ébbik). After reading them in context repeatedly, the strangeness vanishes for me though.

    From Google: "Különbség abban van, hogy a világ őszintébbik felén..."
     

    francisgranada

    Senior Member
    Hungarian
    How does újabbik sound to you?
    For me régebbik is ok, but újabbik not so ... (however, after pronouncing it more time it's starting to sound well :))
     

    Encolpius

    Senior Member
    Hungarian
    I think the problem is that all those words sound terrible without context, try to put them into a long sentence and they are OK. But I agree with you without context régebbik sounds OK while újabbik is strange. And you should at least write: az újabbik, a régebbik. Then it sounds better.
     

    francisgranada

    Senior Member
    Hungarian
    You are right, but first I've tried the following sentence:

    Ma a régebbik sapkámat veszem fel. (ok)
    Ma az újabbik sapkámat veszem fel. (now I'm not sure, but probably I wouldn't say so)
     
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    franknagy

    Senior Member
    >régebbik, újabbik

    Yes,
    in the case of -i the -k is not necessary:
    "Ma a régebbi sapkámat veszem föl."

    But I the variation "ma az ócskábbik, vacakabbik sapkámat veszem fel" sounds me better.
    I do not know why? (Sense of language, Nyelvérzék)
     

    francisgranada

    Senior Member
    Hungarian
    ... in the case of -i the -k is not necessary:
    "Ma a régebbi sapkámat veszem föl."
    Akkor ez lesz a magyarázat a különbségre! Tudniillik régebbi létezik, de újabbi nem ... Vagyis a régebbik-et a régebbi változataként érzékeljük, az újabbik pedig valami miatt szokatlan ...
     

    Zsanna

    ModErrata
    Hungarian - Hungary
    Maybe we should go back to the origins then. (By the way, such a topic, typically aimed at Hungarian users, would have been probably best discussed in Hungarian...)

    The "ik" ending is called melléknevi kiemelőjel that is supposed to follow an adjective in its comparative form. Its name indicates that its use (at least in theory) is restricted to (say) highlight the adjective, to allow a distinction of some sort.

    As to the problem of régebbi/*újabbi:
    régebbi: rég is an adverb (határozószó), so the form régebbi is not the comparative form of an adjective, it becomes an adjective with the "i" (melléknév)képző at the end.
    *újabbi: is not a normal standard form, új (adj.)+ (a)bb (középfok jele)/a comparative form and as the word is and stays an adjective, the "i" suffix to make an adjective out of a névszó is useless, does not make any sense (therefore nonexistant in grammar).

    So let us not mix this "i" suffix with the "i" in the "ik" kiemelőjel, they don't have anything to do with each other.

    So what was the original question, really?
    Which Hungarian adjectives can take this -ik after the sign of comparative degree -bb?


    I would think that a question like that cannot be answered because the examples could be endless (therefore:
    off topic!) meanwhile no obvious grammar rule exists to answer it.
     
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    tomtombp

    Senior Member
    Hungarian
    I guess, we are simply used to a handful of adjectives with this usage and anything else sounds unusual, but they are less unusual if at least the ending is usual (-abbik/-ebbik/-obbik).

    Therefore the adjectives ending in vowels sound most strange with the -ik version (resulting in endings like -ibbik, -ébbik). After reading them in context repeatedly, the strangeness vanishes for me though.
    I couldn't agree more.

    I have doubts with the composite adjectives where I do not even know where to put the -bb:

    Nagypofájú -> nagyobb pofájú / nagypofájúbb -> nagyobbik pofájú / nagypofájúbbik?
    The one having bigger cheek.
    Clearly to the end: "nagypofájúbb".
     

    francisgranada

    Senior Member
    Hungarian
    ... The "ik" ending is called melléknevi kiemelőjel that is supposed to follow an adjective in its comparative form. Its name indicates that its use (at least in theory) is restricted to (say) highlight the adjective, to allow a distinction of some sort.
    Ebből az is következik, hogy a -bbik nem feltétlenül két tárgy/személy közül emeli ki az egyiket, hanem esetleg több közül. Például "Béla felvette a jobbik öltönyét" számomra nem feltétlenül jelenti azt, hogy Bélának csak két öltönye lenne ...
    régebbi: rég is an adverb (határozószó), so the form régebbi is not the comparative form of an adjective, it becomes an adjective with the "i" (melléknév)képző at the end.
    *újabbi: is not a normal standard form, új (adj.)+ (a)bb (középfok jele) ...
    Egyetértek. Viszont ami érdekes az az, hogy e szerint az újabbiknak kéne természetesen hangzania, mivel az -ik melléknévhez és nem határozószóhoz járul (mint látszólag a régebbik esetében). Ebből (talán) az következik, hogy a régebbik szót tulajdonképpen a *régibbik helyett használjuk (régi - melléknév, régibb - a régi középfoka), illetve elmosódott a régebb alak határozószói jellege.
     
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    Zsanna

    ModErrata
    Hungarian - Hungary
    Francis, we are on the same wavelength again.:)
    I understand why you changed to Hungarian (such a thread would be much easier for everybody in Hungarian:rolleyes:) but we should stick to English once it was started like that and most of it is like that...

    I don't quite get your "e szerint a jobbiknak ... kéne természetesen hangzania" - why? What is the alternative? Are you thinking about the difference between jobb/jobbik in the same sentence?
    I don't quite see how that can help to establish some sort of a rule... (That we are looking for, remember!:))

    As for régebb(ik)/régibb: OK but that (in my eyes) is just another example for how diversified the problem is and to what extent there is no point even trying to find an easy rule. (Therefore: this entire thread is not an ideal one for this forum, "mais passons"...)

    As far as I can see one just has to rely on one's ears - alternatively one can study language history and linguistics for years and hope for the best.:p
     

    francisgranada

    Senior Member
    Hungarian
    Szia, Zsanna. You are right, jobbik is perfetly o.k. (I don't speak about the political party Jobbik, of course :)). I have corrected my previous post to avoid misunderstanding: I wanted to speak about újabbik and not about jobbik, sorry ...
     
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