没门(儿)

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April fool

Banned
Punjabi - West Punjab
If I want to say "No way" should I say 没门儿 or 没门?
Are both equally correct in 普通话? Does one sound more formal than the other?
 
  • Skatinginbc

    Senior Member
    Mandarin 國語
    I have a strong tendency to add an 儿 here so much so that I think 儿 is obligatory because (1) 没门儿 "no way, absolutely not, not a chance" and 没门 "no door" do not mean the same, (2) it is a dialectal expression and that dialectal flavor shall be kept, and (3) even those who are not used to r-coloring (like Taiwanese people) tend to show a vowel length contrast in 门 vs. 门(儿) (e.g., 门都沒有 "not even have a door" with a regular 门 vs. 门都沒有 "not even have a chance" with a slightly prolonged 门), which suggests the existence of an underlying 儿.
     
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    hxkart

    Member
    Mandarin - 中文
    没门equals没门儿
    儿is considered as a deletable word in many cases.

    Both of them are informal way.
    For formal way, you should say 不可能 which intonation is relatively stronger.
     

    SuperXW

    Senior Member
    儿 here only marks the r-coloring that added to 门, which is often omitted in writing, and will not change the meaning of the word.
    Phonetically, whoever uses this dialectical word 没门儿 would almost always pronounce the r-coloring, or the 儿 sound.

    One more thing you need to be careful is that 没门儿 is not always equal to "no way".
    No way "Not a chance!" =没门儿
    No way "Impossible! I can't believe it!" ≠没门儿
     

    April fool

    Banned
    Punjabi - West Punjab
    儿 here only marks the r-coloring that added to 门, which is often omitted in writing, and will not change the meaning of the word.
    Phonetically, whoever uses this dialectical word 没门儿 would almost always pronounce the r-coloring, or the 儿 sound.
    So you're saying that even those who write 没门 (instead of 没门儿) would pronounce it with r-coloring? In other words, NOBODY pronounces it without r-coloring?
     

    hxkart

    Member
    Mandarin - 中文
    So you're saying that even those who write 没门 (instead of 没门儿) would pronounce it with r-coloring? In other words, NOBODY pronounces it without r-coloring?
    No, he doesn't mean that, you can choose to pronounce it when you are doing oral speaking.when you want to say没门just say 没门,when you want to say没门儿just say it.In China, when we are speaking, as fas as I am concerned,儿 can relieve the circumstances, make it not so serious,especially he or she is your friend,没门儿means no way but can tell your friend some feelings, like I am not angry.
    没门 means no way also means I you are serious, you are certain that you won't agree.
    Sth like that

    but in writing,-儿 is actually informal.and in writing, we won't use 没门 anymore, itself is informal.
     

    SuperXW

    Senior Member
    So you're saying that even those who write 没门 (instead of 没门儿) would pronounce it with r-coloring? In other words, NOBODY pronounces it without r-coloring?
    That's basically what I said and meant. "Phonetically, whoever uses this dialectical word 没门儿 would almost always pronounce the r-coloring, or the 儿 sound."
    I can't ensure "NOBODY", so I used "almost".
    And I definitely don't have hxkart's experience...
     

    April fool

    Banned
    Punjabi - West Punjab
    That's basically what I said and meant. "Phonetically, whoever uses this dialectical word 没门儿 would almost always pronounce the r-coloring, or the 儿 sound."
    I can't ensure "NOBODY", so I used "almost".
    And I definitely don't have hxkart's experience...
    Interesting! One last question: do people usually write it with the 儿?
     

    fyl

    Senior Member
    Mandarin Chinese
    Interesting! One last question: do people usually write it with the 儿?
    Either way is OK.
    Personally I would write fewer 儿's, and pronounce more 儿化's than what's written down.
    And I agree with Skatinginbc. 没门(with 儿化) and 没门(without 儿化) mean two different things: "no way" (a metaphor) and "no door" (the physical object "door").
     

    Skatinginbc

    Senior Member
    Mandarin 國語
    As I have stated, even if it is unnatural for some people to pronounce the final /r/, most of them will still slightly prolong the syllable length to fill the blank for /r/ in this case. It is non-standard or even incorrect in my mind if one does not pronounce either /-r/ or a lengthened vowel.
     

    retrogradedwithwind

    Senior Member
    Chinese
    I agree with Skating too.

    As for many other words, maybe either with or without r-coloring they means the same, but 没门儿 is absolutely not one of them.
     

    Ali Smith

    Senior Member
    Urdu - Pakistan
    Today I heard a native speaker say 没门 (without 儿化音). I asked him to repeat himself. He did so several times, and each time he clearly omitted the 儿化音. Then he told me he was trying to say "No way!". He added that it was only in 北京话 that one said 没门儿. I found his assertion rather strange, for a few years ago someone told me that in 普通话 there are three places where 儿化音 is obligatory, not optional:

    没门儿 (when used in the sense of "No way!")
    一会儿
    一块儿 (when used in the sense of "together")
     

    SuperXW

    Senior Member
    Today I heard a native speaker say 没门 (without 儿化音). I asked him to repeat himself. He did so several times, and each time he clearly omitted the 儿化音. Then he told me he was trying to say "No way!". He added that it was only in 北京话 that one said 没门儿. I found his assertion rather strange, for a few years ago someone told me that in 普通话 there are three places where 儿化音 is obligatory, not optional:

    没门儿 (when used in the sense of "No way!")
    一会儿
    一块儿 (when used in the sense of "together")
    In Mainland China, these three are obligatory indeed. Anyone who doesn't pronounce 儿 will be considered 普通话不标准 or 不地道, 口音明显.
    It can even cause confusion, such as:
    没门儿 = no way; 没门 = no door?
    一会儿 = a while; 一会 = one meeting?
    一块儿 = together; 一块 = one Yuan?
    However, as a Northern slang word, 没门儿 is quite informal. In regions where 儿化音 are not used, people would seldom say 没门儿 at all.
    Where was your speaker from? With what purpose he/she said 没门?
     
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    Ali Smith

    Senior Member
    Urdu - Pakistan
    He was from Malaysia but ethnically Chinese. I asked him if I could borrow his car and he said 没门!
     

    SuperXW

    Senior Member
    He was from Malaysia but ethnically Chinese. I asked him if I could borrow his car and he said 没门!
    Chinese Malaysian can often utilize more than 4 languages (English, Mandarin, Cantonese/Hokkien/... Malay), but do you really expect their accents are like China's native speakers...? :oops:
     

    Ali Smith

    Senior Member
    Urdu - Pakistan
    Hehe, yeah, he did mention he knew four types of Chinese: 普通话,广东话,客家话,and 福建话. He said he grew up speaking 福建话 but now speaks 普通话 with his siblings and friends.
     

    SuperXW

    Senior Member
    It is amazing that so many languages they can use at the same time. However, their Mandarin is obviously "strange/foreign" to Chinese natives (I doubt their English/Malay... are "strange/foreign" too). Not only their accents, but also the vocabulary and grammar (for some ideas, they must express with other language, or mixing them altogether). I think they've developed a mixed language pattern or system for local communication.
     

    Shazhudao945

    Senior Member
    Chinese - Mainland China
    根本不说,这个词我在遇到北方同学之前只在课本上见过。而且 没门儿 这个词我在北方同学那边也很少听到, 严重怀疑只存在于京津唐地区(在北京领教了人生中最多的儿化音,感觉万物皆可儿化)。东北的同学说的最多的是: 拉倒吧你;想都别想;别瞎(哔~)想;想啥呢你? blablabla
     

    Shazhudao945

    Senior Member
    Chinese - Mainland China
    哈哈,主要我没听佟掌柜没说过这词儿。。。等等,好像说过门儿都没有,但确实想不起来没门儿这个说法了,有空我复习下。长三角这边西北的同胞很少,我跟他们沟通和交流都是很浅层的(其他部门的同事,合作单位的员工),在这些过程中确实没怎么听到没门儿。
     
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    tinang

    New Member
    Cantonese - Hong Kong
    用語上, 每個地方都有不同習慣吧了, 是否正確, 多少是以學術層面或官方設定, 但生活上, 又會是另一回事.

    這個POST最有趣是... "No way"沒有註明原本的場景和用途, 在華語社會, 大概要分地區了...
    只看標題, 原以為是, 普通話的使用, 所以我不懂, 都不明白甚麼是"沒門", 但有趣的是, 內文是No way.
    我想了一會, 走去google translate, 我笑了....

    以一個phase去解, 借網絡英語字典 cambridge dictionary:
    1. used to tell someone that something is impossible: 2. used to say no in a forceful way
    應該解作 "沒可能" 或 "不要".

    如果是物件, No 是沒有, Way可以是路, 通道; 不是沒有門, 以我地區性用語, 是沒有出口"或出路. 就像廣東話的 "無路行"

    另一個點, 是中文習慣, 比如說, No door 就是"沒有門", 我印象中, 真的甚至少聽到門兒~~ 想想在甚麼情況是會這樣說? 除了說關於房間結構的事, 你不會在意一個房間有沒有一道門, 而是當我們需要進入或離開時, 才著眼, 有沒有出口, 或是大門在那裡.
     

    ovaltine888

    Senior Member
    Mandarin Chinese & Shanghaiese
    I think 儿化音 is generally found in 北方话.

    The Mainland Mandarin itself is also deeply influenced by 北方话. Therefore sometimes what we consider Chinese expressions are actually north China dialects.

    I guess you are acutally asking if there is any compulsory 儿化音 pronunciation.

    The answer is yes. Here is the example: "没门", meaning "no way".

    I am from Shanghai and as a matter fact, I rarely use this expression, but once I use it I will always add 儿化音 (没门儿) even if there is no 儿 in writing.

    Without 儿化音, 没门 will sound really weird and lacking of power. I believe this is because "没门” is actually a north dialect and rarely used in south part of China.

    In this case, 儿化音 in 没门(儿) is not optional because you don't have other pronunciation options.

    Moderator Note:
    Thos post has been moved from another thread.
     
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