ていたつもりだったが vs ているつもりだったが

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thetazuo

Senior Member
Chinese - China
1. リビングで眠ってしまった琴里をおぶって部屋に運ぶのは日常茶飯事であったし、女の子を背負うのには慣れているつもりだったが......やはり、少し感覚が異なった。琴里よりも少しだけ重たい体重が、女の子特有の柔らかな感触をはっきりと伝えてくる。
Context: 士道 is carrying his classmate 折紙, who is in hospital, on his back. He isn’t having the same feeling as he does when he carries 琴里, his sister.

2.折紙は、自分の判断が甘かったことを知った。
剣压の余波で、おおよその威力を推し量っていたつもりだったがーー違う。明らかに、世界が、違う。
Context: 折紙 is fighting a 精霊. The latter uses a sword that has tremendous power. 折紙 guessed the power wrongly previously.

Hi. Can we use ていたつもりだったが and ているつもりだったが interchangeably in both examples? If we can, what is the difference between ていたつもりだったが and ているつもりだったが in both examples?
(Both seem to mean “XX thought..., but......”).
Thank you.
 
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  • MKwhale

    Member
    Japanese
    Hello thetazuo-san,

    in example 1, objective background the message carries does not change depending on the tenses you use (いるつもり: present, or いたつもり: perfect). English version would be, "Although I thought I have had much experience of bla bla bla", in either case.

    However, いるつもり gives the focus on your state of mind at that instant, while いたつもり describes the evaluation of your experiences until that time.

    In example 2, difference in the tense works in the same mechanism as in ex.1.
    However, the resultant effects differ a lot.
    English translations are:
    for いたつもり
    Although I got used to evaluate the power by bla bla bla;
    while for いるつもり
    Although I tried to evaluate the power by bla bla bla.

    And the intention of writer, I guess, conforms to いるつもり for ex.1 and いたつもり for ex.2, happy to say.

    I thought of the reason why such difference between ex1.1 and ex.2 arises.
    In ex.1 いるつもり modifies the verb 慣れて which relates to the practice already done. Therefore the tense difference between いる and いた affects only on the attitude of the speaker.
    While in ex.2, いたつもり modifies the verb 推し量って which is being done. Therefore the tense difference affects the tense of the 推し量る conduct.

    That's all.
     

    thetazuo

    Senior Member
    Chinese - China
    Thank you very much, MKwhale-san.
    In example 2, difference in the tense works in the same mechanism as in ex.1.
    However, the resultant effects differ a lot.
    English translations are:
    for いたつもり
    Although I got used to evaluate the power by bla bla bla;
    while for いるつもり
    Although I tried to evaluate the power by bla bla bla.
    Does the つもり in example 2 also mean “thought”? I see in your translation there isn’t the word “thought”.

    And can we say 慣れたつもりだった and 推し量ったつもりだった in those examples respectively? If we use them instead of the original versions, how will the nuances change?
     

    MKwhale

    Member
    Japanese
    Does the つもり in example 2 also mean “thought”? I see in your translation there isn’t the word “thought”.
    'Thought' does not always work as a just fit translation for つもり.
    The verb think, as you know, indicates various levels of mental activity; ranging from 'an idea happened to have' to 'philosophical thinking sought for many years'.

    つもり on the other hand is one's intention held consistently but not always expressed to others.
    It comes from the word 積もる which is used as 「雪が静かに降り積もる」 to describe that snow is falling on silently to accumulate its depth while people are not aware of it.

    Therefore, 'thought' is a good translation of つもり when it carries this sense of hidden intention; and in the translation I presented for ex.1 in #3 thread, I thought that the word 'thought' could bring that sense when it was combined with 'have had' expression.

    However, for ex.2, if I stick to use 'thought' I should have written, "Although I thought it was an effective way of me to evaluate the power by such methods and used to do so for a considerable time bla bla bla.... this is a tiresome waste of words.

    To help you catch the usage of つもり, I would give a few samples.

    「いったいどういうつもりなんだ、こんなことをして」 What do you have in mind to do such a thing.
    「すみません、そんなつもりではなかったのですが」 Sorry, I did not mean it.
    -----------

    「相当のお心づもりがあっての為されようとは思いますが」 You have done so with much thought behind, I presume.
    「はい。私なりには」 Yes, to the extent to make myself satisfied.


    And can we say 慣れたつもりだった and 推し量ったつもりだった in those examples respectively? If we use them instead of the original versions, how will the nuances change?
    The difference between 慣れたつもりだった (perfect tense) and 慣れていたつもりだった (perfect progressive) is the one that lies between perfect and perfect progressive in general; namely, in these cases, "have been accustomed" and "have been being accustomed" for ex.1, and "have evaluated" and "have been evaluating" for ex.2.

    You can use these expressions in these samples if you please.


    cheers.
     
    Last edited:

    thetazuo

    Senior Member
    Chinese - China
    Thank you again.
    'Thought' does not always work as a just fit translation for つもり.
    Yes, I know that “thought” doesn’t quite fit in the context of example 2 as a translation. What I meant was the two ていたつもりs in both examples are the same in the sense of "wrong estimation". Right?
     

    thetazuo

    Senior Member
    Chinese - China
    I thought of the reason why such difference between ex1.1 and ex.2 arises.
    In ex.1 いるつもり modifies the verb 慣れて which relates to the practice already done. Therefore the tense difference between いる and いた affects only on the attitude of the speaker.
    While in ex.2, いたつもり modifies the verb 推し量って which is being done. Therefore the tense difference affects the tense of the 推し量る conduct.
    Oh, by the way, I don’t quite understand the above explanation. Could you please rephrase it or rewrite it in Japanese?
    I think you are suggesting that 慣れる is a punctual verb so the 慣れている and 慣れていた only differ in the attitude of the speaker, while 推し量る is a durative verb so the tense difference affects the tense of the 推し量る conduct. (But my hunch tells me this representation of your idea doesn’t make sense)
     

    MKwhale

    Member
    Japanese
    What I meant was the two ていたつもりs in both examples are the same in the sense of "wrong estimation". Right?
    You have started the discussion of whether or not ていたつもり and ているつもり can be used interchangeably; and I answered 'almost the same in ex.1' but 'considerably different in ex.2'. And now you are asking me the difference between ていたつもりs of ex.1 and ex.2.
    However I do not think ex.2 a good example to discuss the matter in detail because it does not use つもり properly. I would present a proper example below instead of ex.2, which I define as ex.2a, and another as ex.1a just for comparison.

    The scene below is at after an examination.
    example 1a
    1) あの問題は分かっているつもりだったができなかった。
    2) あの問題は分かっていたつもりだったができなかった。

    example 2a
    1) あの問題は解けるつもりだったができなかった。
    2) あの問題は解けたつもりだったができなかった。

    The verb 分かっている or 分かっていた made from 分かる combined with いる or いた indicates state as is the case with 慣れている / 慣れていた in ex.1. In such cases the tense difference between いる / いた does not affect the actual state of 分かる, the state remains the same as of already done (perfect). What differs is the mental attitude of the speaker to express the state as of present or of past. Then follows the interpretation I have explained in thread #2.

    On the other hand, in ex.2a 1), the speaker was aware that he could not solve the problem during the time examination was going on; while in ex.2a 2) he thought, during or right after the exam., he did solve the problem ; but later he was made aware that he failed.

    This comes from the fact that the verb 解く indicates action (not state). This is the reasoning I presented in thread#2 as shown below.
    I thought of the reason why such difference between ex1.1 and ex.2 arises.
    In ex.1 いるつもり modifies the verb 慣れて which relates to the practice already done. Therefore the tense difference between いる and いた affects only on the attitude of the speaker.
    While in ex.2, いたつもり modifies the verb 推し量って which is being done. Therefore the tense difference affects the tense of the 推し量る conduct.
    このex.2 に対する説明がしっくりこないとするならば、ex.2では、そもそも「つもり」という語を必要もないのに使い、その結果、本来の「内心での意図」という意味ではなくなっているからです。この文は、

    「(これまでの経験では) 剣压の余波でおおよその威力を推し量ることができ、そうやって対処してきていたのにーー違う。明らかに、世界が、違う。」
    のように書けば良いのであって、「つもり」を使う必要はありません。 それを、「推し量って対処した」の部分をなんとなく「つもり」という語に置き換えて、それでも読者は分かるだろうと期待しているに過ぎません。もし、「つもり」の意味を正しく適用したいのならば
    「 (これまでは)剣压の余波でおおよその威力を推し量ってきた。今回もそれでうまく行くつもりでいたのにーー違う。明らかに、世界が、違う。」
    となります。この訂正文に対して、「行くつもり」を「行ったつもり」に変更して両者の意味の違いを調べればex.2aで示した場合と同様な違いになるのを確認できるでしょう。

    結論としては、ex2の日本語は正しくなく、その結果として、その解釈ないし英訳は私が示したものに必ずしも限定できなくなってしまうのでthetazuoさんが納得できないのも無理はないと思います。

    And then my last comment: As I have told you several times, I recommend you to learn Japanese using materials written by those who have far better command of Japanese. You can find them in the vast amount of archive Flaminius prepared in the second top thread shown always at the heading.
    Easiest way to learn spoken Japanese for everyday conversation would be through cartoons; they provide essential words and usage of 助詞(post-positional particles). These are enough to speak Japanese because Japanese language has no strict word order to follow; as long as you use words and post-particles properly, it works. However, written Japanese is totally different; word-order, phrase-order, clause order are also important to make your sentence bring what you have in mind properly. It is far more difficult for me to write Japanese sentences free from logical defects than to write their English counterparts which support the logic by word order.

    But remember, I am not reluctant to be caught in a muddle your problematic examples may cause. It gives me an opportunity to think over the language we use.

    Cheers.
     

    MKwhale

    Member
    Japanese
    thetazuo-san,
    now that you have stopped arguing, I have to say that in some cases the difference between ex.2a 1) and 2) results in the same as that found between ex.1a 1) and 2) as you might have suggested in thread#6.

    Suppose in the case of ex.2a 1), the speaker said 「あの問題は解けるつもりだったができなかった。」, way after the examination was over, just remembering the failure, using present tense for vivid description of the past event. Then the time when the speaker got aware of his failure becomes indefinite denying the claim I made in thread#7. You may find other cases where my reasoning fails.

    私がthrtazuoさんに伝えたいのは、こういう日常会話体では、意味は互いにやり取りすることによってしか確定しないということです。この例に当てはめると、
    A: 「あの問題は解けるつもりだったんだけどね」
    B: 「だめだったのか」
    A: 「うん。解いてるときからこりゃだめだと思った」
    or
    A: 「ずっとできたと思っていたのに、返してもらったら零点だった」
    のようにです。

    さらに言うならば、日本人同士の会話では、あえてすべてを語らないことで相手に話す機会を与え、会話が展開するのを楽しむと言う傾向もあるように思います。

    したがって繰り返しになりますが、日常会話は絵から状況を把握できる漫画で覚える一方で、書く日本語は相当の力のある人の作品から習い覚え、あるいはそのような人の文章について議論を行うのが worth your while だと思います。

    では
     

    thetazuo

    Senior Member
    Chinese - China
    Thanks for letting me know the meaning of that expression is dependent on the context.
    したがって繰り返しになりますが、日常会話は絵から状況を把握できる漫画で覚える一方で、書く日本語は相当の力のある人の作品から習い覚え、あるいはそのような人の文章について議論を行うのが worth your while だと思います。
    Yes, I know the language of this novel is not very suitable for deep discussion. But I want to finish reading it first before I move on to the next book written by someone who has a better command of the Japanese language.
     
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