ことでも

thetazuo

Senior Member
Chinese - China
大山:これが、上海ノートホテルのイベントホールか。さすが上海一の高級ホテルだけあって、すばらしい会場ですね。
野田:ええ。それにこのホテルは、環境問題に熱心に取り組んでいることで有名なんです。省エネの取り組みが評価されて、政府から表彰されているんですよ。

Hi. Does the ことで in red mean “because”? If so, wha’s the function of も in green here since we already have は in this sentence?
Thank you.
 
  • kanadaaa

    Senior Member
    Japanese (Tokai)
    It means "in that". も just means "too".

    このホテルは、環境問題に熱心に取り組んでいることでも有名なんです。
    This hotel, it is also famous in that it addresses environmental issues eagerly.
    (= This hotel is also famous for addressing environmental issues eagerly.)
     
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    thetazuo

    Senior Member
    Chinese - China
    Thank you, kanadaaa.
    Since “in that” can mean “because”, do you suggest that ことで means “because” in the sentence as I said in the op?
     

    thetazuo

    Senior Member
    Chinese - China
    Thank you again.
    What makes you think "because" works well as a translation of ことで?
    Try translating the whole sentence into English on your own, using "because".
    The op dialogue is from a textbook teaching Japanese, and the ことで is translated as “because” in that book. And you said ことで means “in that”, which is very similar to “because” in meaning, though I know “in that” and “because” are not exactly the same. So could you use explain ことで in another way? Do you suggest ことで means “in that aspect”?
    But this Nのことで is a different pattern from Vことで in the op. I’m not sure if they have the same meaning.
     

    kanadaaa

    Senior Member
    Japanese (Tokai)
    The op dialogue is from a textbook teaching Japanese, and the ことで is translated as “because” in that book.
    Can you give us the translation here?
    And
    “in that”, which is very similar to “because” in meaning
    I don't really understand what kind of logic is behind this.
    They sound distinct to me.
    But this Nのことで is a different pattern from Vことで in the op. I’m not sure if they have the same meaning.
    If the preceding phrase is an N there needs to be の. If it's a V there doesn't need to. This is the only difference.
     

    thetazuo

    Senior Member
    Chinese - China
    Can you give us the translation here?
    This textbook is for Chinese students so the translation is in Chinese. I’ll translate it back into English. (I have marked ことで and its translations in red)

    野田:ええ。それにこのホテルは、環境問題に熱心に取り組んでいることでも有名なんです。省エネの取り組みが評価されて、政府から表彰されているんですよ。
    (野田:是啊。而且这家饭店还因为热衷于环境保护而颇有名气,它的节能措施评价很高,还获得了政府的表彰呢!= Yes. This hotel is also famous because it eagerly addresses environmental issues. And its energy saving measures are highly praised, for which its was commended by the government.)
    I don't really understand what kind of logic is behind this.
    1. Idioms in that, because;
      inasmuch as:I expected a better price from that store in that I'd bought all my other computer equipment from them previously.
    Would you have a look at this?
    in that - WordReference.com Dictionary of English
    See entry 28

    And what do you think “in that” means?
    If the preceding phrase is an N there needs to be の. If it's a V there doesn't need to. This is the only difference.
    I see. So you mean in the op example, ことで also means について, right?

    PS:
    Interestingly, I have just found an explanation of ことで in the textbook, though it appears in the next lesson.
    EF6E11A2-AED3-4EC9-ACB0-D211064DE834.jpeg

    It says “When V (dictionary form)+こと is followed by で, it can express reason, method, means, etc, and which is meant depends on context. For example, the ことで in ‘1人の社員がミスをしたことで大きな損害が出た’ (A staff member’s mistake caused huge loss) expresses reason.”
    So it seems ことで has a wider sense.
     

    kanadaaa

    Senior Member
    Japanese (Tokai)
    Two expressions being synonyms doesn't mean they mean the same.
    "in that" COULD be paraphrased as "because", but it basically just means "in regard to something".
    In the sentences below, the two instances of "in" have exactly the same function.

    There is a difference in meaning between the two.
    There is a difference in that the first means X but the second means Y.


    The only difference is that "in" is followed by a clause rather than a noun in the second, and for this reason there must be "that".
    And it should be noted that if your logic is correct, the following sentences should mean the same.

    このホテルは、環境問題に熱心に取り組んでいることで有名 です。
    このホテルは、環境問題に熱心に取り組んでいるから有名 です。

    These two mean totally different things.
    And do you think "will" and "be going to" mean the same, and are always interchangeable? The answer is an absolute no.

    To be frank, I don't think the discussion here is fruitful. It's all about the translation and not about the Japanese language.
    You should rather think about what's the function of こと and what's the function of で.

    And FYI, the ことで in the photo is a conjunction. It's not the same as the こと+で in #1.
     
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    thetazuo

    Senior Member
    Chinese - China
    Anyway, do you not distinguish between "because" and "in that" in Chinese?
    Hi. According to an authoritative English-Chinese dictionary, both “because” and “in that” are translated into “因为”. In Chinese 因为 has a wider sense, which covers “because” and “in that”. But, yes, in Chinese there are some other specific expressions for “in regard to something”, such as 至于/关于那一点.
     

    kanadaaa

    Senior Member
    Japanese (Tokai)
    According to an authoritative English-Chinese dictionary, both “because” and “in that” are translated into “因为”. In Chinese 因为 has a wider sense, which covers “because” and “in that”. But, yes, in Chinese there are some other specific expressions for “in regard to something”, such as 至于/关于那一点.
    I see. I would then say, unlike 因为, ことで (the non-conjunction) doesn't have coverage over "because".
    Put differently, it would always be safe to not use ことで when you want to say "because". Use から or ので in those cases.
     
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