قهوة تركي Turkish coffee

[CarlosPerezMartinez]

Marhaba!

Does anybody out there know why they say قهوة تركي instead of قهوة تركية ? I always thought the second version should be the correct one but it is never used.

Thank you.

 

[Whodunit]

Never? Hm, I did a Google research and consider these:

(النتائج 1 - 10 من حوالي 8,090 لـ "قهوة تركية". ( الوقت المستغرق 0.27
(النتائج 1 - 10 من حوالي 6,810 لـ "قهوة تركي". ( الوقت المستغرق 0.30

 

[Heba]

Hola Carlos

As Whodunit mentioned above, both are correct. But قهوة تركي is is more widely used in our everyday language (at least in Egyptian colloquial Arabic- I am not sure about other Arab countries). In Egypt, we almost never use قهوة تركية .

Yes, coffee is feminine in Arabic. Logically, the adjective that follows should be in the feminine form. But I cannot find any exlanation for this exceptional use of the masculine form.

 

[cherine]

Maby the masculine adjective was supposed to describe the "drink" not the coffee itself : مشروب القهوة التركي
But this is a very wilde guess
It's true I've never heard قهوة تركية it's always "turki" (and it sounds better too)

 

[CarlosPerezMartinez]

Hmm, مشروب القهوة التركي would mean "the Turkish drink coffee" like if coffee is only used in Turkey. As you said, it looks a very wild guess . Actually I asked many people in different Arab countries and never got a proper answer. But thank you anyway.

 

[ayed]

In Saudi Arabia , we often say:
Turkish coffee
Qahwah Turkiyyah
قهوة تركية

 

[CarlosPerezMartinez]

I lived in Riyadh for ten years and there is where I learned قهوة تركي . Never tried it before until I was in Saudi Arabia.

 

[MarcB]

That is why you never got a definitive answer. Some use the masc. and others the fem. Suffice it to say thar both are used. you can ask which countries and further parts of those countries use one or the other.

 

[Ghabi]

Maby the masculine adjective was supposed to describe the "drink" not the coffee itself : مشروب القهوة التركي
But this is a very wilde guess
It's true I've never heard قهوة تركية it's always "turki" (and it sounds better too)

I've learnt that in EA a nisba adjective is invariable (i.e. doesn't change for gender or number) when used to modify something non-human. For example, Dutch cheese would be gibna hullandi. I think that's why turki is used.

 

[clevermizo]

Hmm, مشروب القهوة التركي would mean "the Turkish drink coffee" like if coffee is only used in Turkey. As you said, it looks a very wild guess . Actually I asked many people in different Arab countries and never got a proper answer. But thank you anyway.

Actually it would mean "the Turkish coffee drink."

 

[elroy]

In Palestinian Arabic, we tend to refer to that same type of coffee as "Arab coffee" (of course ) and not "Turkish coffee" - and we definitely use the feminine - for example, "biddak niskaffee willa ahwe 3arabiyye?" So I imagine that if someone wanted to refer to it as "Turkish coffee" they would say "ahwe turkiyye" (feminine). I would also say "jibne holandiyye" - definitely not "holandi."

 

[cherine]

I've learnt that in EA a nisba adjective is invariable (i.e. doesn't change for gender or number) when used to modify something non-human. For example, Dutch cheese would be gibna hullandi. I think that's why turki is used.

Good remark! I don't think I've noticed this before, but here are some examples to confirm:
قهوة تركي
قهوة بلدي
جبنة تركي/رومي
عربية ألماني/فرنساوي/ياباني/أمريكاني

As you can see, it's all about "nationalities". Because for the other adjectives, we say عربية سودة/زرقة...، جبنة قديمة، قهوة مظبوطة/سادة .... and so on.

 

[elroy]

Wow, that's a clear difference between Egyptian and Palestinian! In all of those examples, I would definitely use the feminine.

 

[clevermizo]

Good remark! I don't think I've noticed this before, but here are some examples to confirm:
قهوة تركي
قهوة بلدي
جبنة تركي/رومي
عربية ألماني/فرنساوي/ياباني/أمريكاني

As you can see, it's all about "nationalities". Because for the other adjectives, we say عربية سودة/زرقة...، جبنة قديمة، قهوة مظبوطة/سادة .... and so on.

Is it only the case with nationalities? What about any other نسبة that doesn't specifically mean a nationality - like تقليدي، سياسي، etc. Because words like ساد, مظبوط، أزرق don't even have the same form as بلدي، تركي etc. so I wonder if the phenomenon is about the form or about the content.

 

[Ghabi]

It's not just nationalities. For example, balad riifi, instead of balad riifiya... But Cherine will confirm.

 

[clevermizo]

ًWell "balad" is masculine at least in standard Arabic, although I've learned in Syrian both balad and blaad are treated with feminine agreement.

But in Egyptian would you say the following:

ملابس/تياب تقليدي for "traditional dress"
جهة شمالي for "north side"
انتخابات بارلماني for "parliamentary elections"

 

[cherine]

Is it only the case with nationalities? What about any other نسبة that doesn't specifically mean a nationality - like تقليدي، سياسي، etc. Because words like ساد, مظبوط، أزرق don't even have the same form as بلدي، تركي etc. so I wonder if the phenomenon is about the form or about the content.

The word ساد doesn't exist -as far as I know- it's always سادة (plain).
We don't say فكرة تقليدي/سياسي but تقليدية/سياسية not do we say عربية أزرق but زرقا .
So I guess it's "about pertaining" if I can put it this way.

على فكرة we say both مظبوط and مظبوطة for coffee, sorry if this information comes late.

It's not just nationalities. For example, balad riifi, instead of balad riifiya... But Cherine will confirm.

I'm not sure we can say "balad riifi", but maybe we can consider the countryside as a nationality in some way or, as I said above, a form of pertaining انتماء/نسبة لمكان ما . Anyway, we do say بلد ريفية .

ًWell "balad" is masculine at least in standard Arabic, although I've learned in Syrian both balad and blaad are treated with feminine agreement.

It's feminine in Egyptian: البلد دي حلوة .

But in Egyptian would you say the following:

ملابس/تياب تقليدي for "traditional dress" We say hoduum taqlideyya هدوم تقليدية
جهة شمالي for "north side" But we say جهة بحري/قبلي and don't ask me why
انتخابات بارلماني for "parliamentary elections"

Regardin ba7ari and ebli, we also say شقة بحري/قبلي just as we say شقة بحرية/قبلية .

This seems to be a very hard thing to explain and needs some thinking. Hopefully other Egyptians will come to help.

 

[clevermizo]

This seems to be a very hard thing to explain and needs some thinking. Hopefully other Egyptians will come to help.

This seems like quite a complicated phenomenon - thanks for your clarifications. At least for nationalities it does seem to be generally the case.

Though personally I'm happy the Levantine speakers seem to use more strict agreement as that's a lot easier for me as a learner.

 

[elroy]

Though personally I'm happy the Levantine speakers seem to use more strict agreement as that's a lot easier for me as a learner.

Indeed, we do. At the moment, I can't think of a situation in which we would randomly use a masculine adjective with a feminine noun (or the other way around).

Just kidding, by the way. I'm sure it's not random, or at least not completely random, in Egyptian. There must be some logic behind it!

 

[Wadi Hanifa]

Though personally I'm happy the Levantine speakers seem to use more strict agreement as that's a lot easier for me as a learner.

I know for a fact that Syrians will often say قهوة عربي, قهوة تركي, or even قهوة سعودي.

 

[Abu Rashid]

elroy,

for example, "biddak niskaffee willa ahwe 3arabiyye?" So I imagine that if someone wanted to refer to it as "Turkish coffee" they would say "ahwe turkiyye" (feminine). I would also say "jibne holandiyye" - definitely not "holandi."

I don't know if it's a regional variation within Palestine, but I've always heard Palestinians say 2ahwah 3arabi and 2ahwah turki. Admittedly mostly from Gazans, who perhaps are a little closer to Egyptian, but I'm sure I've heard it from people from the West Bank also.

Also my feeling is that those from the West Bank (like Lebanese) tend to pronounce taa2 marboutah in such a way that it's often hard to tell if it's there or not.

 

[Josh_]

The word ساد doesn't exist -as far as I know- it's always سادة (plain).
We don't say فكرة تقليدي/سياسي but تقليدية/سياسية not do we say عربية أزرق but زرقا .
So I guess it's "about pertaining" if I can put it this way.

على فكرة we say both مظبوط and مظبوطة for coffee, sorry if this information comes late.


I'm not sure we can say "balad riifi", but maybe we can consider the countryside as a nationality in some way or, as I said above, a form of pertaining انتماء/نسبة لمكان ما . Anyway, we do say بلد ريفية .

It's feminine in Egyptian: البلد دي حلوة .

Regardin ba7ari and ebli, we also say شقة بحري/قبلي just as we say شقة بحرية/قبلية .

This seems to be a very hard thing to explain and needs some thinking. Hopefully other Egyptians will come to help.

What about other non-Egyptians? Just joking.

Actually, I do not believe it is really all that complicated. I think the initial comment that all nisbas are invariable in Egyptian (which is an incorrect statement) has led to some unnecessary confusion.

The rule is really only about nationalities (and perhaps places of origin in general). When qualifying inanimate objects, the masculine nisba is used for some reason (my theory below). But of course, when qualifying human nouns these nisbas of place follow the normal rules.

In other cases where the nisba is not referring to a nationality or other place of origin it follows the normal rules (e.g. فكرة تقليدية/سياسية). Of course there may be some exceptions (such as شقة بحري/قبلي, but of course the normal agreement occurs as well), but maybe we should not group those in the same category as nationalities/places of origin, lest we get confused.

My (perhaps wild) theory about this is that since we are talking about country/place of origin here, the nisba actually refers to the "origin," (الأصل) and not to the thing in question. So, using Cherine's examples:

قهوة من أصل تركي
قهوة من أصل بلدي
جبنة من أصل تركي/رومي
عربية من أصل ألماني/فرنساوي/ياباني/أمريكاني

---------

On the note of food and seemingly irregular grammatical structures, this kind of reminds me of ordering in quantities. When one wants to order, the object is not pluralized, as might be expected as per the grammatical rules (e.g. one would say "itneet 2ahwa min faDlak," and not say "2ahwateen min faDlak;" "khamsa kiilu mooz," and not "khamsa kiiluwaat mooz"). But this seeming incongruity can be cleared up if we think of the number as merely referring to the number of orders we want while the noun merely indicates what it is we want.

 

[elroy]

Abu Rashid, in my experience the ta marbuta is always pronounced clearly by Palestinians - at least clearly enough for me to hear it and notice it. Particularly in this case, where the difference between the two forms is not just the ta marbuta but also the yy (i.e. it's 3arabi vs 3arbiyye or 3arabiyya), there is really no risk of confusion.

That said, there may very well be a regional difference at play here. As I've mentioned before, Palestinian Arabic often contains northern-Levantine and Egyptian structures that are not found in the other neighboring area (for example, in Syria and Lebanon they use only mitel, in Egypt they use only zay, but we use both interchangeably). Given that Gaza is closer to the Egyptian border than other regions, it's plausible that Gazans would use the Egyptian construction. All I can say is that I have never heard a Palestinian from Jerusalem, the West Bank, or Arab Israel say ahwe 3arabi or anything like that.

Josh, I think your "من أصل" theory is somewhat far-fetched but I think you may be on to something in your last paragraph. In fact, I was going to say something along those lines. To me, it seems likely that in Egyptian, adjectives of nationality are used as "labels" of sorts, to identify which category of coffee, cars, etc. one is referring to. It's almost like you're selecting an option from a list, and the default form is the masculine form. Colors, and most other descriptions, are not normally perceived as categories. In other words, when we think of categories of cars, we don't normally think of "red cards," "green cars," and "blue cars," but (at least in the Arab world) we do think of "German cars," "Japanese cars," "American cars," etc. The same goes for coffee. The basic categories are "Arab/Turkish coffee" and, well, "instant coffee" (which as I said we call "niskaffee" in Palestinian). Of course, there are other types of categories for which the rules of agreement are not broken, but maybe this phenomenon is a result of the fact that categories are very often based on nationality.

I think that a similar explanation may apply in the case of شقة بحري/قبلي. Those are probably perceived in Egypt as two broad categories of apartments.

Lastly, I have a question for speakers of Egyptian (and other dialects in which this occurs): What happens in the plural? What would you use to describe "3arabiyyat/sayyaraat"? "Almaan"? "Almaniyyaat"? "Almaani"?

 

[Josh_]

Josh, I think your "من أصل" is somewhat far-fetched but I think you may be on to something in your last paragraph. In fact, I was going to say something along those lines. To me, it seems likely that in Egyptian, adjectives of nationality are used as "labels" of sorts, to identify which category of coffee, cars, etc. one is referring to. It's almost like you're selecting an option from a list, and the default form is the masculine form. Colors, and most other descriptions, are not normally perceived as categories. In other words, when we think of categories of cars, we don't normally think of "red cards," "green cars," and "blue cars," but (at least in the Arab world) we do think of "German cars," "Japanese cars," "American cars," etc. The same goes for coffee. The basic categories are "Arab/Turkish coffee" and, well, "instant coffee" (which as I said we call "niskaffee" in Palestinian). Of course, there are other types of categories for which the rules of agreement are not broken, but maybe this phenomenon is a result of the fact that categories are very often based on nationality.

I think that a similar explanation may apply in the case of شقة بحري/قبلي. Those are probably perceived in Egypt as two broad categories of apartments.

That sounds very logical. You are probably right. The adjective merely refers to the category of the object in general.

Along those lines, perhaps the adjective does refer in some way to some word for type or category (صنف، نوع) which is masculine. It would not need to be explicitly stated, but could it be that the adjective is made masculine in agreement with the masculine word for type/category in sort of a subconscious manner?

This could also go for those who still might want to consider my أصل theory. أصل being a masculine word could subconciously affect the adjective without being explicitly stated.

Of course, that's just another wild theory.

Lastly, I have a question for speakers of Egyptian (and other dialects in which this occurs): What happens in the plural? What would you use to describe "3arabiyyat/sayyaraat"? "Almaan"? "Almaniyyaat"? "Almaani"?

While I can't recall a time I have ever heard anything like that in context, I would imagine the adjective would still be masculine singular, especially if we are referring to the that category thing you mentioned:

3andi talat 3arabiyyaat almaani w-itneen yabaani.

 

[Volcano]

What do you say for Türk kahvesi in Saudi Arabia?

 

[Wadi Hanifa]

We call it gahwa turkiyya.

 

[clevermizo]

Just out of curiosity is this essentially synonymous with gahwa 3arabiyya as it is in the Levant/Egypt/etc. or is gahwa 3arabiyya something else in the Peninsula?

 

[Wadi Hanifa]

No, we have our own gahwa 3arabiyya, which we usually just call ghawa (note the changed order of letters). It contains cardamom or cloves and has kind of a gold or light brown color, and it is never sweetened. If you ever travel on Saudi Arabian Airlines, they will make sure to serve you some.

http://www.mzayan.com/vb/images/uploads/3095_24984478496512b80b.jpg
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2305/1600800474_25820f8d5a.jpg

 

[cherine]

What about other non-Egyptians? Just joking.

ما احنا اتفقنا إنك مصري يا جوش

The rule is really only about nationalities (and perhaps places of origin in general).

Yes, I think I prefer "place of origin".

Of course there may be some exceptions (such as شقة بحري/قبلي, but of course the normal agreement occurs as well), but maybe we should not group those in the same category as nationalities/places of origin, lest we get confused.

As we use both masculine and feminine with these 2 adjectives, I think the masculin one is more about the kind of aeration (?) the appartment get, rather than its location. In other words, we mostly say شقة هواها بحري = well aerated, not very hot in summer, while a شقة قبلي/هواها قبلي is a hot one, even in winter.

My (perhaps wild) theory about this is that since we are talking about country/place of origin here, the nisba actually refers to the "origin," (الأصل) and not to the thing in question.

I don't think it is that wild. Actually it makes sense. Although we can't say for sure that it is the correct explanation. Maybe we can never tell what the origin of this rule/practice. Just as we can't tell why do we use singular feminine adjectives with inanimate plurals in fuS7a.

When one wants to order, the object is not pluralized, as might be expected as per the grammatical rules (e.g. one would say "itneet 2ahwa min faDlak," and not say "2ahwateen min faDlak;" "khamsa kiilu mooz," and not "khamsa kiiluwaat mooz"). But this seeming incongruity can be cleared up if we think of the number as merely referring to the number of orders we want while the noun merely indicates what it is we want.

It's true we say number+kiloo, number+ahwa... but I can't think of an explanation either. Specially that with other orders we say: كوبّايتين شاي، طبقين رز/خضار/مكرونة ...

Abu Rashid, in my experience the ta marbuta is always pronounced clearly by Palestinians - at least clearly enough for me to hear it and notice it.

I agree, even if I don't hear much Levantine in general. But I know for sure that they make a clear difference between a feminine word, ending with taa2 marbuta, and a masculine word, without the taa2.

Colors, and most other descriptions, are not normally perceived as categories. In other words, when we think of categories of cars, we don't normally think of "red cards," "green cars," and "blue cars," but (at least in the Arab world) we do think of "German cars," "Japanese cars," "American cars," etc. The same goes for coffee.

I like the "label" explanation as well.
As for colors, we do use the masculine for some, and the feminine for others:
عربية سودة، بيضة، حمرة and بني (and not bonneyya) and فضي and not (faDDeyya=silver). It seems that some colors just sound better in masculine.

The basic categories are "Arab/Turkish coffee" and, well, "instant coffee" (which as I said we call "niskaffee" in Palestinian).

In Egypt too, we call it نيسكافيه .

Lastly, I have a question for speakers of Egyptian (and other dialects in which this occurs): What happens in the plural? What would you use to describe "3arabiyyat/sayyaraat"? "Almaan"? "Almaniyyaat"? "Almaani"?

As Josh said, we keep the masculine singular عربيات ألماني/ياباني/فرنساوي ....

No, we have our own gahwa 3arabiyya, which we usually just call ghawa (note the changed order of letters). It contains cardamom or cloves and has kind of a gold or light brown color, and it is never sweetened.

Do you really pronounce it as ghawa غوا ? or is it g-hawa?

This type of coffee, we call it ahwa m7awwega قهوة محوجة .

 

[elroy]

The fact that you say عربيات ألماني/ياباني/فرنساوي lends credence to my theory that the adjective here is used as a label. In Palestinian Arabic, we would say سيارات ألمانية/يابانية/فرنساوية, so we have normal agreement. I can't think of an explanation for بني and فضي, though!

Oh, and Wadi Hanifa meant g-hawa, so "gh" represents two different consonants in this case. I know this because I've heard that pronunciation on Khaliji TV shows.

 

[Wadi Hanifa]

Oh, and Wadi Hanifa meant g-hawa, so "gh" represents two different consonants in this case.

Indeed. "Initial consonantal clusters" I believe is what you linguists call them. They're an important shibboleth for distinguishing bedouin-type dialects (or used to be anyway). Some European linguists even call this phenomenon "the ghawa syndrome."

Cherine,
What does "m7awwega" mean?

 

[elroy]

We have word-initial consonant clusters, too, just not that particular one. Then again, "g" does not exist in Palestinian Arabic (except in borrowings from other languages or dialects).

 

[Wadi Hanifa]

We have word-initial consonant clusters, too, just not that particular one. Then again, "g" does not exist in Palestinian Arabic (except in borrowings from other languages or dialects).

Well obviously all Arabic dialects have them. But bedouin-based dialects (and these include Iraqi and Gulf dialects) have them in places where most other Mashriqi dialects do not. For example, people from my father's generation pronounce the name عمر as "3mar" instead of "3umar" and the name محمود as "m7amuud" instead of "ma7muud." We also have them in verbs, e.g. y3arif instead of yi3rif or ya3rif. This feature is one of the most noticeable differences between the speech of western and southern Saudi Arabia as opposed to the central and eastern regions.

 

[elroy]

Well obviously all Arabic dialects have them.

I don't see why this should be so obvious. As a matter of fact, there are many languages (like Spanish and - would you believe it - MSA ) that do not have word-initial consonant clusters (with the possible exception of words of foreign origin), so the suggestion that some Arabic dialects may not have them is not exactly a preposterous one.

Anyway, I guess what you're saying is that they occur much more frequently in Bedouin dialects than in other dialects. Thanks for the clarification.

 

[Wadi Hanifa]

Anyway, I guess what you're saying is that they occur much more frequently in Bedouin dialects than in other dialects. Thanks for the clarification.

But not as much as Maghrebi dialects, where you can begin a word with up to three consonants (perhaps more!), a feature I heard is inherited from the Berber languages.

 

[ssbws]

Dear friends, please, cast some light on the matter of the usage of masculine adjectives with feminine nouns, like: قهوة تركي / سيارة اميركي .
Are there any rules or typical cases when we have to break the rule of “feminine noun + feminine adjective”?

 

[momai]

Adjectives always agree with their nouns in Syrian Arabic. As far as I know this disagreement exists only in Egyption Arabic.

 

[Finland]

Hello

Adjectives always agree with their nouns in Syrian Arabic. As far as I know this disagreement exists only in Egyption Arabic.

However, I do remember vividly drinking قهوة تركي in Damascus. Is قهوة تركية also frequently used?

Interesting!

 

[momai]

Hello
However, I do remember vividly drinking قهوة تركي in Damascus. Is قهوة تركية also frequently used?

Interesting!

When I say واحد قهوة عربي لو سمحت I mean I want my coffee the arabic way (here is 3arabi not an adjective or so I think) . But when I go buy coffee I say واحد كيلو قهوة عربية لو سمحت.

 

[ssbws]

So, dear Mamai, you mean to say that in Damascus they say, for instance, قهوة برازيلية not برازيلي in the sense of its origin? But if you want it prepared in a Turkish or Brazilian way you can say both: قهوة تركية or قهوة تركي?
Does such disagreement between a noun and an adjective take place in any other collocations or cases?
in an Egyptian book I once or twice encounted سيارة اميركي for example.

 

[momai]

So, dear Mamai, you mean to say that in Damascus they say, for instance, قهوة برازيلية not برازيلي in the sense of its origin? But if you want it prepared in a Turkish or Brazilian way you can say both: قهوة تركية or قهوة تركي?
Does such disagreement between a noun and an adjective take place in any other collocations or cases?
in an Egyptian book I once or twice encounted سيارة اميركي for example.

Just to make things clear I am not from Damascus and I rarely speak or deal with anyone from Damascus. For me adjectives must agree with their nouns. So brazilian coffee is قهوة برازيلية and turkish coffee is تركية. But just as a side note it is way more common to call turkish coffee arabic in Syria. I know that in Greece it is called greek coffee and the same applies to Armenia as far as I know.

 

[cherine]

Cherine,
What does "m7awwega" mean?

@Wadi Hanifa , I'm sorry I missed that question. القهوة المِحَوِّجة is a blend of coffee, mostly with حَبّهان (or هيل as you call it in Saudi Arabia). I don't know what or if there are other ingredients, this is the only one I know of as I don't drink coffee.

Does such disagreement between a noun and an adjective take place in any other collocations or cases?
in an Egyptian book I once or twice encounted سيارة اميركي for example.

Please read the previous posts in the thread to learn more about this. Maybe posts 17 and 29 can sum the general discussion regarding the Egyptian usage.