well.. "Jiim"is a little bit more complicated than "qaf".even arabic linguist argued on this fact,but the correct pronounciation in fus7a should be "J"(the english j),but MSA tends to use "zh"(french j) in most countries.Tariq Ibn Ziyad, you wrote a good summary on the various pronunciations of the letter qaaf. Could you please do the same for the letter jiim?
See my postDîm:
never heard about that one,can anybody think of an example? thanks!
An arresting case of dissimilation.In Morocco,there are some words where letter "g" comes from "jîm" instead of "qaf"(which is generally the casa with "g" in moroccan dialect) examples:Gezzâr:butcher,gles:to sit
the reason is that moroccan arabic doesn't like having Jiim(pronounced zhiim) with S,Sh or Z in the same word
I mentioned that in post 2. cf. Syriac= gamal, Hebrew= gimel, Aramaic =gimel. Some tribes from Yemen(not all) and some who migrated to Egypt conserve this sound. As we can see the sound in spoken Arabic has changed from place to place. In fus7a it changed to j.Fus7a= j, Ancient semitic g in go.
Thanks for your explanation.I read the same thing.
I think it comes from yemen where it is still pronounced like that,and the yemeni dialect(southern arabic) appears to be the one the most ancient.Nowadays linguists tend to say that yemeni dialect is the closest to classical arabic.
In a linguistic point of view,this is quite logic that "gim" is more ancient than "jim":
gim has been palatalised to jim than to zhim(which the the most recent pronounciation,it's no surprise that it's used mostly in cities)
I have never heard that the "hard j" is the standard way. Perhaps it depends on the region. In Israel and the Palestinian Territories, with few regional exceptions, it is pronounced like the French j - and that's what's taught in schools.I read that the standard (MSA or Classical Arabic) way is the English J but many dialects use the French J and also pronounce the MSA that way.
The main table contains only [dʒ] (English "J")...[dʒ] is pronounced as [ɡ] by some speakers. This is especially characteristic of the Egyptian and southern Yemeni dialects. In many parts of North Africa and in the Levant, it is pronounced as [ʒ], and in certain regions of Oman it is pronounced as [j].
Most variations on spoken Arabic have different reflexes of Classical Arabic phonemes than the pronunciation of literary Arabic. Or, to put it differently, spoken and literary Arabic differ not only in specific words but also contain changes in the pronunciations of certain sounds.
[ʒ] (French "j" symbol) is quoted in the same paragraph as Egyptian "g" and Yemeni "j" ("y" in "yes"), hardto tell if there are multiple standard of MSA or these variations are considered only part of spoken dialects. The last statement is certainly against that.This does not mean that Egyptians recite the Qur'an differently or that they do not know the standard pronunciation: speakers have no difficulty pronouncing /q/ correctly and understand Standard Arabic when necessary.
Leaving aside the areas where it is pronounced /g/, I read the contrary: that true Arabic has the French <j>, whereas most modern Arabics have the English <j>.I read that the standard (MSA or Classical Arabic) way is the English J but many dialects use the French J and also pronounce the MSA that way.
There's still some uncertainty, and I am not quite sure about what sounds these symbols represent [ ɟ ] ("f" turned 180 around its axis) and [gʲ] ("g" with a little superscript "j", I think)In modern Arabic, /dʒ/ is pronounced as [ɡ] by some speakers. This is especially characteristic of the Egyptian and southern Yemeni dialects. In many parts of North Africa and in the Levant, it is pronounced as [ʒ]. However, the true classical pronunciation was most likely a voiced palatal plosive ([ ɟ ]) or palatalized velar stop ([gʲ].
There is no "true" ArabicLeaving aside the areas where it is pronounced /g/, I read the contrary: that true Arabic has the French <j>, whereas most modern Arabics have the English <j>.
That's right. You can listen to the former here, and you can try to understand palatalization (which is what the little "j" stands for) here. Wait, you're a Russian speaker -- then palatalization should be a familiar concept to you.There's still some uncertainty, and I am not quite sure about what sounds these symbols represent [ ... ] ("f" turned 180 around its axis) and [...] ("g" with a little superscript "j", I think)
Interesting link, thanks. These symbols confused even more, it doesn' match any MODERN Arabic pronunciations of the letter.
I agree with Marc. If the Spanish website chose to transliterate it with a "j" it would be misleading, so the "y" is closer, specially that I've heard many Spanish speakers pronouncing the English words with "j" as "y".I've seen a Spanish website that transliterates تاج as "taay" and بُرْج "bury" which in my opinion is very misleading. Is it safe to say that ج at the end is always pronounced as /ʒ/ (ž / ж / zh) or /ʤ/?And should تاج and بُرْج be pronounced as "taaj and burj" (respectively) rather than "taai and buri"?
ما هي حالات حرف الجيم التي يُنطق فيها بهذا الصوت
This is a big topic.قيل لي إن الجيم في الفصحى ينطق /dʒ/ في حالات معينة، وفي حالات أخرى ينطق /ʒ/. لا أدري
These textbooks use [dʒ]: Teach Yourself Arabic, Mastering Arabic, Introduction into Modern Standard Arabic. So do Madina university textbooks - they are downloadable. They always say [radʒul], not [raʒul]I suppose one way to resolve this issue is simply to refer to a standard textbook on MSA.
EDIT:ج dʒ ~ ɡ
ج (/dʒ/) is pronounced [ɡ] by some speakers. This is especially characteristic of the Egyptian and southern Yemeni dialects. In many parts of North Africa and in the Levant, it is pronounced [ʒ], and in certain regions of the Persian Gulf it is pronounced [j]. In classical Arabic, this was either [ɟ] or [ɡʲ].
I highly doubt that [g] is not perceived as "proper MSA" in Egypt; otherwise, it would not be used by so many educated Egyptians. Similarly, [ʒ] is the standard pronunciation used by Palestinians, and it is by no means considered incorrect. As a matter of fact, [dʒ] sounds dialectal to most Palestinians, and downright laughable to some.Elroy,
If you'd grown up in Egypt, you'd have likewise been immersed in the [g] pronunciation, both in ordinary speech and in MSA. You probably would have heard it from all of your schoolteachers, and everyone on TV and even in speeches by the president himself. However, it still would not be considered "proper" MSA pronunciation.
Your argument is not valid. My guess would be that the reason only [q] and [D] are accepted as standard pronunciations of ق and ض, respectively, is that the other pronunciations found in some dialects could be confused with other phonemes found in MSA (the same applies to ث and ذ, for example). ج is truly unique in that all 4 pronunciations found in the Arab world are allophones of the same phoneme. Thus, whether you pronounce جزر "ʒazar," "dʒazar," "gazar," or "ɟazar" (with a voiced palatal plosive), there is no confusion or ambiguity, whereas قُم could be confused with أُم if the ق is pronounced as a glottal stop, and ثار with سار if the ث is pronounced as a س, etc.However, when it comes to مخارج الحروف, I'd say there is a an exact correspondence between Quranic recitation and "correct" MSA. What else makes people think that anything other than ق=[q] or ض=[D] is "wrong?"